Raw Feeding during Whelping - Page 1

Looking for some advice, I have been raw feeding my girls for just over a year. I am prepping to breed one of them in December, but am nervous that I will not get the ratios right, as well as weening the pups onto raw. At the moment I feed Chicken as a primary protein, but also supplement with beef, venison, turkey and goat. I also have access to goats milk, which my girl was raised on until she was approx 9 mo.

Thank you in advance for your advice. Chris

Karma and Chameleon

You should be able to feed raw through pregnancy and be able to wean the pups on raw, mixing it with pablum and goats milk. I know someone that lost a litter from what they said was from feeding tripe to the bitch shortly after whelp. The bitch licked the pups giving them some type of nasty bacteria infection that killed them. I would research more about pre and post natal nutrition. You can supplement the mothers food starting two weeks before delivery with a product such as CPNs Puppy Structure.

I was told many years ago by my vet (who was my vet for over 25 years) that while a mother dog needs to produce a lot of milk and keep it going until the puppies can eat for themselves...and to feed the mother MEAT...that MEAT will help the mother to produce milk...I have now done this for a long time and have never wanted for more milk from the mother dogs...
When the puppies are ready to eat solid foods around 3 to 4 weeks of age I will bring into their box some RAW Chicken (no bones at this time)...I even hold it up and see which puppies will smell it out and come to it...they even begin to fight for the Chicken...To me...All very good indicators of what the puppies will be like...It's very interesting...
I have also been advised by another vet that it's MOST important that puppies are started off on really good foods...That it's so important that the puppies are started off on really good foods to start their bodies on really good stuff...
I have even had an incident that 1/2 a litter was fed cheap foods and the other 1/2 was fed really good foods...There was a very definite difference in the 2 different groups...I mean a really wide difference...

~Bob~

Raw or cooked doesn't matter so much as that they get high quality animal protein and fats for the mother and pups before and after birth and weaning. I feed my mother dogs room temperature cows milk 3.5% (as much as they want) to help them milk and give them both water, vitamin D, and fats easily used to make milk. The mother dog is very busy after whelping for the first 3-5 days. She has no time to rest and even eat. I hand feed her raw and cooked meat as well as hand feeding cows milk in a bowl even when she is with the puppies nursing or keeping them warm. Despite all of the BS about milk I have raised about 60 or more GSD and never seen a problem with pups or adults processing cows milk, goats milk, or evaporated milk. I don't use condensed milk due to added sugar. Evaporated milk is great for puppies during weaning at full strength ( no dilution ). I start the puppies on evaporated milk as soon as they can stand up and drink effectively ( 3-4 weeks ) and start adding finely chopped cooked chicken at 4-5 weeks to make an evaporated milk + chicken gruel. My pups never have stress or health problems during weaning and I let the mother dog wean them when she wants. The mother dog may still nurse the pups once a day or twice even at 12 weeks if she wants. Totally up to her and the pups .. mother dog knows best generally. For the pups the milk and food is always warmed to 100 F .. especially when they are just starting to eat milk and solid food ( think 3-8 weeks ) and commercial probiotic is added once per day at first feeding and daily thereafter to make sure the pups have the correct micro flora to digest the cows milk. If you give the pups antibiotics ( I never do unless they are sick and they almost never are ) then probiotics must be included to keep healthy gut flora present to help with digestion and overall health. I never treat for Coccidiosis and almost never have any.  Worm with fenbendazole and that is about all that is needed ... good food and lots of it does the trick.  Give the mother dog food choices during later nursing and weaning to keep her healthy and milking well but in the first days highest quality and easily digestible foods as she can't eat as much as she needs.  By the time the pups are 4-6 weeks old the mother dog is likely not able to give enough milk to meet their needs as a single food source so the beginning of early supplementation of her milk with additional food for the pups at 3-4 weeks eases the transition from her milk to external food sources and makes sure the weaker pups get all that they need.  It depends on litter size but my system works on litters 2-12 in size.

Thank you Markobytes, Q man and bubbabooboo... I tend to over think things and research, there is so much conflicting info on the web, I figured I would reach out here.. I saw something somewhere about minimizing bone at a certain point, is this something you have heard of

When it comes time to start solids for the puppies, there are quite a few threads here dealing with the subject. This link will take you to many threads: Feeding Puppies Raw

This is from one of those threads and is what Beau ate, starting around 3-4 weeks (his mom was emaciated so that was an issue).

They are getting canned goat milk, egg yolk, greek yogurt, (touch of karo syrup at first, when they were 3-4 weeks old), and raw hamburger, I was going to start them on chix wings this week, since they are able to chew much better.

Do not give egg whites to puppies, something to do with albumen inhibiting other nutrients or minerals. (Can't remember exactly, just don't do it!) After the hamburger meal, when their teeth are in, eating chicken wings, with the skin and all was never an issue. Also, gizzards, necks and chicken backs, too. The good thing about them eating chicken parts is, the bone to meat ratio is considered perfect. And the bone crunching is something they love and keeps their teeth so clean.

Will someone please comment on this .

For years I have had a difficult time understanding the wisdom of 'raw food canine diets' given the fact that are dogs have been selectively bred for thousands of years and their digestive systems are not that of a wild animal.

If WE do not eat food raw then why the big craze to feed our dogs raw. I don't need articles to read .. Most of the time they are great but many times worthless articles. Giving to dogs /pups chicken , meats , veggies i think is ok . Why not simply cook those foods ? We do. And if you say there isn't the nutritional value as cooked compared to raw . Then why don't we eat raw for the same logical reasons . And really , how much in reality of a nutritional value do we need between cooked and raw, that make our life that much more ? I mean , My gs eat cooked foods and i don't see them malnutritioned. I eat cooked food and I think actually I could loose a few pounds , myself.

I have seen several cases , adult and pup that contracted Salmonella with serious health consequences. If your comment is that the raw food was handled incorrectly , that might have been the case, maybe / maybe not. However , do you think the slaughter houses we get our food from or their food from , is 100% sanitary , is there that much difference from food origins? And raw chicken that we eat, aren't we always careful when cooking it to not cross contaminate ? . So , If I get you right , you are thinking the raw food we give our animals is safer than the raw for we get ? Now that is a scary thought , isn't it.

I am not being a smart butt here , but will someone throw some light for me on this raw food craze ? What makes raw a viable choice or consideration ? Thanks for any logical explanation.

The mother's milk and reduced stress early helps the pups more than anything else. Good food, plenty of it, a healthy, clean, proper temperature, and dry environment helps both the mother and the pups. The attention the mother gives to the pups immediately and for the first 8-16 weeks plays a big role in developing their confidence and personality as well as playing a role in their genetic expression. Watch " 9 months that made us" which deals with human development over nine months prior to birth and then imagine that crammed into 9 weeks that made us for puppies. Then imagine the first 12-15 years of development for a human child crammed into 12-15 months for a canine puppy and you can begin to understand the complexity that puppies and mother dogs deal with during the pups first weeks and first months. By the way I often cook chicken and strip the meat from the bones for puppies. It just makes it easier for them to digest and their puppy teeth are very weak. Before the puppies reach 8-9 weeks I cook their meat and grind it up a bit and then eventually give them cooked chunks without bone at around 8 weeks and then transition to raw meat at 9-10 weeks or even later. Cooked liver is also good in small quantities. They get lots of milk either from mother or a goat or cow. Evaporated milk has been equal to canned goat's milk for my GSD puppies but may not be for all breeds.  The raw food that puppies get early in life from the mother dog or wolf in the wild is usually regurgitated from her stomach after she returns to the den.  This food has been treated with mom's stomach acids and at least partially digested and sanitized by her very acidic stomach pH.  My females occassionally will throw up food for their puppies .. it seems to be a natural impulse to the pups begging to nurse during and after weaning.  Later after the pups are larger the mother dog may bring back parts of a carcass but in the early days it is usually regurgitated food.  I just make it as easy and stress free for the mother dog and puppies to get all that they need as possible. 

Benefits: No grain or other additives, of which allergies are often triggered.

Cooking the meat with the bones, makes the bones brittle and apt to splinter and are considered dangerous. The raw chicken bones, being mostly from young birds are easily crunched.

Dogs' digestive systems usually are too fast to actually show symptoms of Salmonella if any are present. The warnings and recalls are usually for the benefit of inadvertant human/child dangers, if consumed. I myself, have never seen a dog present with a case of Salmonella. Always wash your hands and any areas when handling raw chicken. So, no, the raw for dogs and humans are equal regarding safety, so take the proper precautions with cleanliness. Clean their bowls!

Again, the bone ratio when feeding raw chicken, is ideal for their nutrition. One of the posts in that link, did mention feeding raw tripe was a terrible idea to feed the dam (when normally it is a vitamin powerhouse), because bacteria from her licking her pups sickened them and they died. Freeze dried tripe might be more acceptable? Not sure, some other expert will have to chime in.

My rescue pup, at his young age was already taken from his mom because she was a neglect and abuse case. Therefore, no chance of bacteria being spread by her care, either.

The absolute BEST reason to feed raw is teeth and gum health. There is no comparison like a raw fed mouth vs a kibble fed dog. Add in all the expensive chews that one hopes will actually clean their teeth but don't. Besides that, they love to crunch those raw bones, and no wonder they were born with the teeth to do that, too. Poops are not smelly and the quantity is reduced. Many folks just let them dessicate and blow away if one has the yard for that.

If you can get hold of a meat grinder you can save a lot of time if the machine can grind chicken bone .
On my machine the only thing what stops the grinding is pig skin , on my machine I only have 1 extrusion plate , so I put it through 3 times.
On the 3rd go it looks like the tuna spread from subway .
I grind all duck on bone , chicken carcass
Mix in veg , mackerel , beef , pig skin and fat , organs
I have fed this from 3 weeks , at the 5 week I cut everything tiny and feed
From the 7 week I feed whole .
Also buy goats milk ,
On leerburg there is a free goat milk recipe , if in case something did happen to the mother ,
4 years ago I bought the online whelping DVD from leerburg , somethings that was said or shown I did not see on the net .
There are some very helpful Free movies on the net , from misty trails .. It's misty something .
On the litter I wheped last year , I stopped giving calcium rich foods to the mother at 8 weeks ,
When the first puppy is born I give her something high in calcium , I read I think on this forum or another that it helps with the contractions .
From what I have done in the past is if the mother can eat , feed her .