A question I can't answer - Page 1

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by JonRob on 19 June 2017 - 13:06

I get more and more dog training clients asking a question I can't answer:

Where can they get a GSD that is biddable (happy to cooperate just because he wants to and enjoys it, not because some insane toy drive is being gratified) and has a decent off switch if he gets enough exercise.

I have no answer because true biddability seems to have been largely bred out of GSDs.

Does anyone know of breeders who breed successfully for biddability in GSDs?

Most likely this will turn into the usual PDB slugfest with folks claiming that biddability has not been bred out of GSDs and anyone who says otherwise is an idiot.

Not interested in that and will not respond to the typical PDB insults.

Just interested in an answer to the question from folks who know what biddability is.

by Gustav on 19 June 2017 - 14:06

There still are breeders out there, but they aren't under neon signs.

by JonRob on 19 June 2017 - 14:06

"There still are breeders out there, but they aren't under neon signs."

I'm sure there are, but who are they?

by Bavarian Wagon on 19 June 2017 - 16:06

How does one know if the dog works for praise or if it works for a ball?


by Hundmutter on 19 June 2017 - 17:06

I honestly don't think it has all been bred out, JonRob - but maybe that is just my perspective from THIS country (UK).
Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 19 June 2017 - 17:06

It hasn't been bred out at all. I've got a good balance of dogs that are in it for you, and dogs that are in it for themselves. Our C litter was entirely in it for you, also produced Seizure Alert Dogs because they are so in tune with their handlers. In my A litter I've got dogs that are in it for you, B litter produced more dogs that were in it for themselves. They primarily work because they get something out of it but have super off switch and temperament and enjoy to work not because the drive tells them to but because they want to work. D Litter, has a few different characters. There are two so far, where I can tell that they are in it for you. The others are super aloof and independent, also some angry little pups that will most likely have super aggression. All seem to have good off switch so far.

by JonRob on 19 June 2017 - 17:06

"I honestly don't think it has all been bred out"

So who are the breeders in your country that successfully breed biddable GSDs? Some of my clients would be willing to pay the high cost of shipping to get a biddable GSD from UK or elsewhere overseas.

by JonRob on 19 June 2017 - 17:06

"Our C litter was entirely in it for you, also produced Seizure Alert Dogs because they are so in tune with their handlers. In my A litter I've got dogs that are in it for you, B litter produced more dogs that were in it for themselves. They primarily work because they get something out of it"

Very nice description of the difference and what my clients are looking for. I would just add that for a biddable GSD, in it for you and in it for himself are the same because the dog takes such joy in connecting with you and pleasing you. There is nothing he wants more.

Are you planning any litters that are likely to include biddable GSDs?

Also, do you know any other breeders who successfully produce biddable GSDs?

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 19 June 2017 - 18:06

Yes, I am. It's very important to me. I also know of a few breeders that have very biddable dogs themselves. One good and honest breeder is in California. "Aus dem Tal" Shepherds. I particularly like the dogs coming out of her Luna vom Donau Ries female. The combination between Luna and Bruno produced super nice biddable and possessive dogs with a fantastic off switch. Another place I would go to is Sean and Christina O'Kane. They can generally get you exactly what you are looking for and Christina is super honest about her dogs. If there is a weakness she has absolutely no issue telling you what that weakness is. As for biddability, the oldschool dogs I grew up with, were never truly biddable dogs. They were extremely handler hard dogs. Biddability was always associated with a bit of handler sensitivity. Harro Lechrainstadt was a dog used to counter extreme handler hardness. You can find him in pretty much every pedigree in this time and age. Another dog that produces fun and biddable dogs is Falk. People don't like him because of the health issues associated with him but Falk or Ahron bring super fun, biddable and strong dogs (I have yet to see true nerve issues out of him and I linebred on Ahron). I bred to a Goldi Black Power x Karlo Trumelo daughter. Goldi herself is a Jonny Casameno daughter and a Club Member that's in the same Club Jonny was said that he produced lots of bad elbows and either extreme over the top drive or no drive at all. I've got one dog out of my C litter that is very extreme in drive. His food drive is so high, he starts screaming as soon as he hears a single piece of kibble and there was some prey frustration/aggression there too. I have yet to have any elbow issues in this litter. And if there are any bad elbows it shows up right around that age. He was sold to the Police and then went on to be trained as a Bomb Dog. Another one is so darn clear headed, I've never seen anything like it before. There is no noise, no conflict, nothing. Super drives, super biddable, full strong grips. He's my favorite out of all of them. What they've all got is that insane bond to their handler and a sweetness and biddability as well as a very high intelligence. IT's the intelligence thats truly intriguing and that comes through the mother. My male is intelligent and biddable but the mothers intelligence is through the roof. You show her something and she just knows it. All the other pups from what I can tell are high drive but with an off switch. We had 11 puppies and half of them went to active pet homes. One is doing French Ring and can easily compete against Mals, one Bomb Dog, the other one is doing Suitwork (my favorite one) driving into the suit at 10 months old like an adult dog but with a clear head and biddability thats insane.

Just to show you the pedigrees:

This is my A Litter, B litter was a repeat from that: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2132656-athos-von-den-sturmfalken


A litter super biddable and handler oriented. B litter more handler hard and in it for themselves. It all depended on how the genes fell. A litter is more like Mother in looks, structure and coat. B litter is definitely more like the oldschool Baerenfang dogs but loves to work with you, just not for you. If that makes sense.

C Litter: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2640016-cwire-von-den-sturmfalken

C litter is extremely biddable on top of being naturally and highly intelligent dogs. What stuck out is their extreme intelligence and environmental confidence from the very beginning. They are very in tune and bonded to their handlers to the point it produced seizure alert dogs. One over the top truly extreme dog that doesn't possess the overall clear headedness of the others but still a super working dog. He's just a screamer and can't handle his drive yet, maybe he will be able to with maturity. He's just 10 months old. The others one is super clearheaded and knows how to preserve his energy. All other dogs are local in either active pet or working homes. There is one pup in this litter that is not as confident as the others. Overall it's a very uniform litter in biddability, drives and confidence.

D Litter: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2633447-drizzt-von-den-sturmfalken

D Litter so far has a variety of personalities. We've got two maybe three in there that are in it for you but are also aloof and independent puppies. They are 12 weeks old now and we can see certain tendencies. One thing we are going to have is some quite hard dogs with good aggression. There are three males in this litter that do not like being held and if you keep holding them they get angry. Very angry. They are also rather pain resistent and would rather do their own thing.

The two females on the other hand are more in it for you. While they don't need you, they want to be with you. Super social puppies, environmentally super confident, not easily stressed puppies. One thing that I noticed is that this litter is by far the hardest one to crate train. They do not want to be crated, they want to be in the middle of everything. And you have to follow through with them because otherwise they will walk over you. So far we have a range from extremely busy puppies to a pup that is super laid back and doesnt have a care in the world.

by Animal Haven on 19 June 2017 - 18:06


Sent you a PM


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