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by Koach on 22 October 2013 - 07:10
Can a really strong dog lose it's power and dominance over the decoy through constant compulsive training to obtain perfection and points in the protection (C) phase at IPO and other sports? I have observed this at the club level where dogs, through being constantly corrected harshly to obtain perfection and points, seem to lose some of that power they showed as younger dogs. Can this also happens to the very top prospects chosen as young dogs to be trained to the WUSV Championship level?
NB: I know that some dogs show more aggression after an occasional correction but it's the constant application of compulsion I question.
by Nedev385 on 22 October 2013 - 07:10
Yes it is possible that.When the owner and assistant do not work properly with the dog.When the dog is fatigued,and lose interest.When you do not change the time, place and assistants.
by Hired Dog on 22 October 2013 - 08:10
First, REALLY strong dogs are not selected for IPO work or any sport where attention to details is needed. Strong dogs, especially once they mature, wont take that type of punishment or allow a handler or helper to push them without retaliating.
Of course you can push a lesser dog so far that it can and will break, but, for what....points? Some of the people involved in the sport forget that real life with your dog is NOT in the ring once a year, its every day while living in the real world where there are no "bad guys" hiding in a blind or in a tree. Its the ability to live with that dog and have it behave in a way that is beneficial to you and yours.
This could get long, but, the reason you dont see serious dogs compete or they get titled real early and then get pulled is because they wont deal with BS treatment from anyone.
Of course you can push a lesser dog so far that it can and will break, but, for what....points? Some of the people involved in the sport forget that real life with your dog is NOT in the ring once a year, its every day while living in the real world where there are no "bad guys" hiding in a blind or in a tree. Its the ability to live with that dog and have it behave in a way that is beneficial to you and yours.
This could get long, but, the reason you dont see serious dogs compete or they get titled real early and then get pulled is because they wont deal with BS treatment from anyone.
by Koach on 22 October 2013 - 08:10
Interesting point HIred Dog.
by joanro on 22 October 2013 - 09:10
HD, yes, and those strong dogs you describe are the ones which should be used for breeding.
by Gustav on 22 October 2013 - 09:10
Hired dog you are right, sport is a stage....just like theater, movies, plays, etc....it strives for perfect presentation through countless repetitions, it takes certain type dogs to excell.....it also excludes certain types.
I'll leave it at that!
I'll leave it at that!by Hired Dog on 22 October 2013 - 09:10
Joanro, I agree with you, but, the dogs that get bred are the ones that are winning in the show ring or the IPO ring or whatever ring because people cant see that far.
by joanro on 22 October 2013 - 10:10
@ HD, they can't see that far and/or, they don't know any better because they believe the hyp. I used to be like that, until I had the opportunity to have my hands on a world competion dog and see the pups produced by him. There was no comparison with my real world dog and his pups and the competition world dog and pups. But until one has the opportunity to have the experience, all there is, is what you hear.
by Sunsilver on 22 October 2013 - 10:10
I'm not an expert in the area of schutzhund, but one thing I know about our breed, since owning GSDs from the mid '80s on: they have a BRAIN! Take ANY smart animal out, and have it repeat a task endlessly, mindlessly, punishing it harshly for small mistakes...what the F*** do you THINK is going to happen? 
They are NOT robots, for heaven's sake!
One of the principles I stick to in training is I use the MINIMUM of compulsion necessary to achieve results. If the dog doesn't have many more positive experiences when being trained than negative experiences, it is, sure as shootin'....SURPRISE, SURPRISE... not going to want to train anymore!
Another thing I've noticed: the better and more experienced the trainer, the LESS compulsion they need to use!
No, I'm not a member of the cookie and clicker brigade, I just want my dogs to ENJOY what they are doing! I'd rather have a happy dog than three extra points and a place on the podium.
Most top trainers DO know how to keep their dogs happy. Watch the obedience routines of some of the good ones, and you'll see the dog's tail wagging. That's why I love to watch the video of Mr. Murphy (Claudia Romard and her husband.) Murphy is wagging his tail as he's hanging suspended in mid-air from the sleeve! You don't get that sort of attitude with constant, heavy-handed corrections!
They are NOT robots, for heaven's sake!
One of the principles I stick to in training is I use the MINIMUM of compulsion necessary to achieve results. If the dog doesn't have many more positive experiences when being trained than negative experiences, it is, sure as shootin'....SURPRISE, SURPRISE... not going to want to train anymore!
Another thing I've noticed: the better and more experienced the trainer, the LESS compulsion they need to use!
No, I'm not a member of the cookie and clicker brigade, I just want my dogs to ENJOY what they are doing! I'd rather have a happy dog than three extra points and a place on the podium.
Most top trainers DO know how to keep their dogs happy. Watch the obedience routines of some of the good ones, and you'll see the dog's tail wagging. That's why I love to watch the video of Mr. Murphy (Claudia Romard and her husband.) Murphy is wagging his tail as he's hanging suspended in mid-air from the sleeve! You don't get that sort of attitude with constant, heavy-handed corrections!
by Hired Dog on 22 October 2013 - 11:10
Sunsilver, I dont want to get off topic here or get into training and compulsion methods, but, a wagging tail does not always mean happiness and compulsion is based on the dog's temperament. Having said that, I will not "tug" the leash when I correct or tap the E collar at level 2...I know and understand well that a correction must serve TWO purposes...to stop the dog doing what its doing at the moment, but, to also embed in its head that such behavior will also not be acceptable in the future either.
As with all sports or activities involving dogs, selection of the right dog is the first consideration...that alone will help you avoid pushing the dog beyond what it can genetically offer and I have a very hard time understanding or accepting those who are able and willing to push dogs past that point for the sake of points.
As with all sports or activities involving dogs, selection of the right dog is the first consideration...that alone will help you avoid pushing the dog beyond what it can genetically offer and I have a very hard time understanding or accepting those who are able and willing to push dogs past that point for the sake of points.
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