Not a Question of Our Goodness - Page 1

It has been a exercise in patience to read through all the mumbo jumbo posted on the "so called" religious threads and not comment at every turn..As far as Christianity is concerned there are only a few things people really need to understand with clarity. If certain basic principles taught in the Bible are not accepted then everything else is really a moot point..

To be honest it causes me some personal stress to comment on these threads and to start this new thread is not something I do haphazardly. It takes time out of my day to keep up with these threads and mostly I feel inadequate to try and communicate with clarity over an internet forum. I do however feel compelled to post this thread in spite of my obvious inadequacy.  

I do recognize that our PDB is comprised of many different people and beliefs..(or nonbeliefs)..My intention is absolutely not to defend Christianity against other belief systems or ideas. I have no desire to try and convince those who have already come to a conclusion about their reality,  but rather to make the doctrine of the Bible clear for those who are interested in what it teaches about certain subjects.

I know this thread will most likely get flooded with the typical copy and paste and videos, but so be it,,lol,,

The question is not how good a man is, but rather how Holy God is..

Until we recognize who God is (and I am referring to the God of the Bible) we can not have a clear understanding of mans/womans goodness. We hear people say that this man was a good man or this women was a good women, but by what standard do we make that comparison?..I imagine that we mean compared to the average person this particular person excels in their goodness..I know very few good people, but I do know a few actually, and compared to most they are exceedingly good without doubt. However, Christians do not use Gandhi or Mother Theresa as their point of reference..Christians use Christ which in essence is God and therefore perfectly Holy..Now do you see how utterly not good every man/women is when compared to the standard of holiness we find in God and Christ..

This is essentially why no man/woman is good enough..The bar is set too high as it where,,.The standard Biblically speaking is too high for any human to obtain by acts of goodness ...That is why at the conclusion of the matter if we think that our goodness will be sufficient to bring Gods favor we are sorely mistaken..

This also, brings us to the question of children and babies,,This is what I do know according to what is clearly taught in the scriptures..All of the human race is inherently born with a sinful nature/disposition intact and ready to do sin..Our babies do not need to be taught to be bad,,,lol,,,we do however have a need to be taught to be good and we work towards this end until we take our last breath..

If an unborn baby, infant, child should die the fact still remains, they are inherently capable of sin; so in essence they are sinful..And when compared to the same standard which is a Holy God fall desperately short of the mark. We as Christians can not ignore what is clearly taught because it rubs our human affections wrong..I am a mother of three children and I have lost two by miscarriage. In my humanity I can not fathom such thoughts, but I do not have the authority to change what is clearly taught and I unequivocally trust Gods Goodness and Mercy in the matter..




 

Mumbo Jumbo is right.

SICK.

Like we needed another holy thread, seems redundant to me.

Seriously.

:)

Ruger1,
A very nice and well thought out post.   I am very sorry to learn of your two miscarriages, I know how difficult and hard that is.  I'm sure you are elated with your three other children and appreciate and love them very much.  I have to disagree with your views on who goes to Heaven, or better yet with teachings as you describe.  In today's world with TV and the internet it is easy for most people to communicate and be converted and saved by well intentioned people like the "Shtal's and Gouda's" of the world.   I still wonder about the people of centuries ago who lived good lives, but never had the chance to be converted?  Where did they go?  All their good deeds, their "Holy" life was all in vane because they didn't pray to "Jesus?"  Perhaps their GOD saved them and sent them to Heaven? 

If an unborn baby, infant, child should die the fact still remains, they are inherently capable of sin; so in essence they are sinful

I really do have an issue with the infant dying before he could ask for forgiveness, because he was "capable" of sin.  I have a hard time with that.  I was at my nephews Christening, about 30 years ago and there were several children being baptized.  The Priest stated that if anyone of these infants had died on their way to the church before the Baptism they would not be saved and would not go to Heaven.  That one statement had a profound impact on me and is one of the reasons I could never go back to that Church.  I find that completely ridiculous.  Who is more innocent than a child and who would be more free from sin?  Who deserves a spot in Heaven more than an innocent child?  Those that sin hourly as Shtal mentions he probably does; but ask for forgiveness afterwards?????  I find the whole thing extremely hypocritical.  If Jesus is truly a loving and compassionate savior and God, I think he would accept the infant into Heaven.  If not, I may need to convert to Judaism or become a Hindu, it seems very un-christian like to me.

Buddha slam, think Buddha.

What if one cannot accept that some children, because felt to be
inherently capable of sin, they are "in essence, sinful" - even when
not old enough or physically independent enough to actually commit
sins ?  [Must be religious who agree with me on that, let alone other
non-believers.]

Jim..I want to comment on the later part of your post. As far as a child dying before they were able to be forgiven is not the issue. The priest that made the comment was not communicating any doctrine that is taught in the Bible. That might be the doctrine of Catholicism but not of the Bible. The doctrine that all humanity is born with the stain of original sin inherited from Adam/Eve is essential for understanding humanities total dependancy on the work of Christ.

Accepting that all humanity falls short of Gods perfect standard does not reveal injustice on Gods part, but rather His mercy. God would be perfectly justified in His judgement against everything and everyone that falls short of perfection, but instead He did provide us Christ..

You are correct that a child is more innocent then any adult, but the standard to which you judge that infant is in comparision to an adult. If you compare that same infant to a perfect and holy God the infant is no longer innocent, but guilty of the sin that he/she has inherited through their humanity. 

Now again as I said on the other thread it is the soul that sees eternity, not the flesh. The visual of little infants and children burning in hell is extreamly inaccurate IMO. Each of us do have a soul that will see eternity some sooner in life and some later. Furthermore, we are finite in out ability to see the condition of ones heart/soul and God is infinite with the ability to know all things...

**sorry no spell check..:(