Obama gave an impassioned speech - Page 21

 If I were to for a moment, assume that the passage of the legislation in question would most assuredly prevent future acts of mass violence, and I chose view its passage in a political, judicial, and administrative vacuum, the specific sacrifices involved with its passing would be a trivial price to pay for the lives saved. Unfortunately, this is not my perception.

Carlin, 
How are you today? I am hoping you are still feeling open to some further explanations for me, concerning your POV and one particular word you used! I think you have mentioned "vacuum" more than once, in your supposition of what I would imagine, is how you view my decision making capabilities? Since we are having a nice conversation in spite of some glaring differences, can I accurately say, that is a nicer way of saying, get my head out of my bubble? LOL

The fondness and fervor to adhere strictly to the founding fathers intentions, as a deference to their having possession of some kind of better minds than what is produced today, and that they knew to predict what we are experiencing, today, in a debate about guns and the gun ownership culture in American society, is sounding very sympathetic to the Libertarian viewpoint. That and the kind of out of context insistence that our differences in such matters is unfortunate, and needed to be labeled Liberty vs Luxury, the outcome you see as something being taken away, instead of a step to the side, so both exist? That was my impression, at least!  Otherwise, it has not been unpleasant thus far for me, to have discussions with you that include differences.

Now, as has been noted, I am sometimes wrong, lol, so if I am taking the defensive track, and took something personal where it was never considered, I can and will reconsider my post if you can show me where I misjudged.

 

Jesus!

​This is funny! 

Good afternoon everyone....

Bee - no, when I use the term vacuum, as it pertains to our conversation, I simply mean, that where I believe your worldview allows you peace of mind in directly responding to recent events through civil government legislation, mine does not. I don't think you have your head in a bubble, rather, I suspect that your philosophical outlook typically finds you more comfortable with legislative trends than mine, allowing you a certain freedom to function in that sphere, without feeling as concerned about the long view as I am. As far as the founding fathers, while I do not believe they were of superior intellect or virtue, I believe their unique circumstances and experiences saw them in a place with a clearer, broader, perspective, and the opportunity and responsibility to build a brand new house, on the foundation of their choosing. The classical education of these men was astounding. The genius of what they did, was to recognize the inherent imperfections resident among themselves, as with all people, and to create a structure of civil government upon a very basic set of principles based on the immutable natural laws outlined by Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence. As far as the Libertarian viewpoint, where I do share some their goals, their ideology absolutizes the liberty of the individual, at the cost of a certain amount of order and justice. Partisan politics has been the undoing of government. Washington felt so compelled, that he allocated a great deal of his farewell address warning of its disease. If you aren't aquainted, it's a good read; astonishing what has come to pass, actually.

Carlin,

The classical education of these men was astounding. The genius of what they did, was to recognize the inherent imperfections resident among themselves, as with all people, and to create a structure of civil government upon a very basic set of principles based on the immutable natural laws outlined by Jefferson in the Declaration of Independence.

I do want to talk more about this! Maybe not the particular details you or others are most interested in, but still. I do. From what I understand, they would have been the elite, and well to do class. They would have learned to read and write in Latin and Greek. They would have discussed such famous philosophers as Plato, Aristotle and Socrates in their native languages. They would have had personal tutors. It would have been common for them to have been sent away to learn the house and customs of another family. This would create bonds and ties, and even marriages. 

...to be continued....

Carlin,
I actually have a few more points, but I wrote a long thing and somehow I have hot corners again on my browser and moving my mouse, well, it swiped to a new page and wiped me out.  Now I have to do an even better job on the rewrite, since why bother to write it all again? So, I'm sending more often, is the bottom line. Oopss! 

 

Lt. Nicholas Vogt, Army, 25th Infantry Div.

Morning Carlin,
Where was I? LOL Oh well, I'll just have to start over, fresh. First, this part of what you said got me thinking:

...I suspect that your philosophical outlook typically finds you more comfortable with legislative trends than mine, allowing you a certain freedom to function in that sphere, without feeling as concerned about the long view as I am. ...

Now, I wouldn't say I am unconcerned about "the long view". I do see a big picture, but I agree, if I think about it, my "long view" probably is not prioritized the same as your "long view". I would say philosophically, I often do believe in, "We'll cross that bridge when we come to it." And won't let myself get bogged down with myriad future "what ifs", that either will, or will never happen. You know what I mean? It doesn't mean I don't acknowledge them, just that I acknowledge my lack in ability to do anything about it. So, I guess that would leave me working within the known sphere, or what is the current political state, including the particular players.

 

 

Bee-

To those who happen to share my worldview and philosophy, the trend in civil government over the past say, 100 years or so can actually be quite disturbing. It's a complicated issue, in that so many people look exclusively to what has been accomplished in terms of equality, and often charaterize critics of the processes as merely elitist obstructionists (indeed, some are unfortunately), interested only in securing their position on top of the proverbial mountain. Sadly, I see no solution. Of the republicans, I see no reason to believe, that under their influence and direction, the deck would not continued to be stacked in the name of freedom, capitalism, or even religion. I am absolutely convinced that four years of Romney would have accomplished little more than to further galvanize the American public, and further damage the perception of conservative ideals. The liberals do a great job of identifying the symptoms of the problem, though IMO, their solution is horrific. All politically ideology is rooted in a philosophical one; something all professional politicians are aware of, occasionally elude to, but seldom address with their more meager "subjects". Regardless of my lack of confidence in a failing, hypocritical GOP and constituency, my own values often find me swimming alongside them against the tide.