Losing power and dominance through training? - Page 2

another sport bashing thread?  Hate to break it to you, but the best dogs I have ever been around have been merely "sport" dogs.  There is no dog that is too tough or dominant to be just a "sport" dog.  Now there may be plenty of handlers and trainers too fucking stupid to be able to train such a dog, but they aren't "too much" for sport.  You may not get 98-98-99 scores, but you can certainly title and do well.  There are plenty of us that look beyond titles and scores and there are and have been plenty of podium dogs that produce nice fucking puppies that grow into exceptional dogs by any standard.  To suggest otherwise is disingenuous.  Just like one of my favorites never got above low 80's in club trials ever.  Hardly anybody ever saw him or would know who he was.  If you didn't train with him, you wouldn't know him.  I'd take dogs like him every single day and he produced well. 2 Sons working for MO PD's and another on the WUSV team.  Like I said, nice by any standard

and yes you can tone down a dog, it's always a balancing act in training.  Speed and power for control and obedience.  Some get brought way down because the training is bad or the handler can't handle the dog so it's done intentionally.  Right or wrong, it is, and if it's not your dog you get no say :)  

It's easy to hold a dog on the end of a leash and have them look just raging with power and dominance.  That's the easy part, and yet it is where so many stop because their dog is "too tough" when really it is they're not talented enough to move any further as a handler.  

ARgh.  Hired Dog, I know enough of dog's body language to tell the difference between a happy dog wagging its tail and a dominant dog that may attack (tail wagging just at tip.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTN5kTkdvME

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ1bRqr7y8s

C'mon, these dogs are ENJOYING what they are doing. It shows in every step they take!
 

i know top of podium doesn't equal top producer, It's what I said, but to deny that some podium dogs haven't been exceptional producers is just as short sighted and disingenuous.  Your Dr. analogy makes no sense.  

and sunsilver why are you frustrated with me?

Sorry, Z-Dog. Look upstream, I edited my post.

I saw no one bashing sport dogs either, just some truthful statements. When truth equates to bashing, the issue is with the receiver. Sport, show, and real are separate realms, that is not bashing anything to point that out. They require different focuses these days and that is just a fact of evolution....to become upset about that fact, or to think it is degrading is a personal problem. There are good dogs in all three venues, depending on what you value the breed for, IMO.

This is exactly the reason when some novice shows me their "super tough, hard as nails" 12 month old or 18 month old dog that is pulling like crazy to get to the decoy with no control and asks "what do you think of my dog?"  Or when some one shows me their dog or a video of the dog going crazy and out of control I am not overly impressed.  I will often respond "show me the dog in 3 years and let's see what it has."    I am more impressed by a dog that is under control, focused and still exudes power.  Any dog will lose power and drive if "constantly corrected harshly," strong dogs just take longer to lose it.  A good handler understands the need for compulsion and praise and how to apply both properly for the dog they are working.  Experienced handlers do not need less compulsion they use the appropriate amount but realize the importance of praise, reward, timing and building drive.  A good handler will see the effects of training on the dog and modify his or her approach when the dog is reaching a plateau or has peaked. 

No dog can or should be trained with the constant application of compulsion. A dog needs to understand the task at hand, be trained for it motivationally then proofed.  Once the dog understands a command and refuses to perform that command in a timely fashion that is disobedience and the command must be enforced.  Once the dog is correct it must be rewarded at a higher level then the correction used.  This reward must be something meaningful to the dog.  If the dog does not respond exceedingly well to the reward then the pay check must change to something the dog loves.  If the handler lacks the timing to reward properly, lacks the ability to praise properly (and many do) then even good dogs will be diminished or squashed in their temperament and performance. 

When it comes to IPO, people must realize that the 3 disciplines of the sport require some pressure to achieve high scores.  Tracking can be stressful to some dogs, OB and the dumbbell may stress other dogs, the protection can also be stressful.  When you put all 3 phases together and expect excellence in all 3 phases, often times one has to give.  Serious sport competitors will tell you that trying to obtain those last couple of points is a delicate balancing act, especially in all 3 phases. 

It is very common to see "peaks and valleys" in training, especially when control has been put on a dog in a certain area.  For example, if the "out" was not trained motivationally off the field before ever seeing a decoy, you can expect a dog's bite work to diminish for a few sessions after the out has been introduced.  A good trainer will see this and expect this and know how to deal with it. 

Maintaining or building the rage, power, aggression, clear head, focus, drive and joy for the work shown by a strong young dog is really the goal.  However, it is not always easy to do and that is where the skill comes in.  The dogs that maintain that drive and power for years are really something to see.  I'd say it is a combination of an excellent handler and an excellent dog.

Thank you. z dog!

It's easy to hold a dog on the end of a leash and have them look just raging with power and dominance.  That's the easy part, and yet it is where so many stop because their dog is "too tough" when really it is they're not talented enough to move any further as a handler.  

That was a good one!

Very well said, Jim!  Yes, that's what I was trying to say when I said the good handlers don't use a lot of compulsion.