Obama gave an impassioned speech - Page 18

You're now speaking of the personal philosophy and worldview of the colonists, as opposed to the efficacy of their chosen system of civil government. Many people don't realize that when Jefferson drafted the DOI, the intention was for the colonists to secure the rights of a proper "Englishman", as granted by the royal charter, perpetuating the western tradition. Slavery was not a machination of government in the States, or of England for that matter. Rather, it dates back to virtually every civilization, included the Greek democracy and the Roman republic. Because the issue was not addressed by American civil government, doesn't mean it was a function of it. The atrocities committeed against those slaves precipitated the lowest moments of our history. Personally, I have a lot of trouble understanding how those who called themselves Christians thought it acceptible to massacre the natives and confiscate their land.

This looks deep, maybe I should get my hip waders on.
 

Carlin,

You said,

When these current measures prove inadequate (which is purely subjective of course), we will realize the "need" for further controls, with precedent having already been set, and being propagated as the only rational course of action.

Hasn't that been my point? I and 90 percent of other Americans have reached that "subjective" point. And the ease of doling out death to babies in our classrooms, highlights the fact that these innocents have been proven extremely vulnerable to the current ideological thinking patterns that are locked in a 200 year old mindset--- that is driving that point home, in a big way.

Why can't we just realize 99% of our politicians care nothing about we the people of these united states or the US Constitution because they "represent" special interests like NDAA - SOPA - GMO - FISA - Federal Reserve etc.

Realize it, and work within to change it. When the insurmountable and the impossible are thrown up in my face, I always remind myself, that yes, one person can make a difference. And then I start a mental list of those singular people who didn't listen to everyone else's bad advice, ie. Burn it all down, and it becomes simply and plainly, true.

Bee,
your 90% is incorrect propaganda.
You have dead babies on the brain, that's not what this is really about, but you and others will keep on using those dead babies as you call them to push your agenda.
You should maybe go live in a country that suits you better.


Moons.

Bee, studying the 200 year conversation reveals our approach to be anything but static. When you're talking about the oppostion to this kind of legislation, you can't do so in vacuum, because by and large, opponents' postions cannot understood solely within that context. Politicians are mindful of this when posturing. When you as an individual evaluate the entire the conversation (some can't, or don't bother to), you make a determination based on the evidence afforded by history and precedent, and forward your view. My own evaluation finds me questioning the efficacy of the measures in question, particularly in light of the legislative paradigm shift it represents. I can at the same time understand your position, and disagree with it. If anything is true, it is unfortunate that our world finds us in this place where we must decide.

Micaho said -
"Admin - We will never forget that George W. did not live up to the principles for which he was elected.  I don't know any Republicans or conservatives on this forum or elsewhere who would consider him "our hero" based on his policies.  Haven't you noticed how we always refer back to Reagan for examples of how things should be done?  You can throw Bush in our faces, but at least we admit he was a disappointment.  Using Bush's mistakes to make Obama look good is a waste of time.  One bad turn does not deserve another. "

George W Bush said -
— "Bush ... took on those — including many members of his own party — who say his policies led to excessive spending. He compared himself to Clinton, George H.W. Bush and Ronald Reagan on several economic statistics. In his tenure, total government debt in relation to the size of the overall economy, 'which is the only accurate measure across the administrations, was close to Ronald Reagan's and less than 41 and 42,' he said."


Micaho it looks like GWB compares himself to your self proclaimed conservative hero Ronald Reagan - ROTFLMFAO. So, there ya go. LMAO. Yes, the stalwart of conservatism spending Ronald Reagan was a top choice for you to mention so one bad conservative does deserve another, LMFAO.

Carlin,
I am not completely unawares of the general nature of all politicians, and part of me does recognize the pragmatics that make a successful political career, will also appear in a character that possesses a certain fluidity. I have no problem using our elected leaders to make my point, as I hold the belief, there is no other final authority as our USA cultural  figurehead, no matter who is pumping money into the lobby system. When I want something changed, I always want to deal with the decision maker in a negotiation. When Obama came to Newtown, CT he offered that access. I would be foolish not to accept it. That does not mean I equate this with instant success. I am defining success in the simplest terms. I think I have already said that, a few times.

I am hoping you will expand on this, that you wrote:

 My own evaluation finds me questioning the efficacy of the measures in question, particularly in light of the legislative paradigm shift it represents.

I am most curious as to what you are calling, "the legislative paradigm shift it represents."

And thank you for disagreeing, in a most agreeable way.