by ValK on 13 October 2020 - 12:10
sure, food is useful and necessary tool at least in starting the nose work but even so, it must be viewed only as a tool.
if dog not have interest in food or cannot digest ordinary food ingredients then something very wrong with health of that dog and such dog should be washed out of stock.
by Nans gsd on 13 October 2020 - 13:10
You can try Stella & Chewy's duck patties; they are dry and you can break off a piece real easy. I use kibble also. String cheese works well also you can cut up and freeze and it will probably get you thru a training class or two. BOL You can also cut up chicken and back at 250 and make your own chicken jerky that way you know what is in it; marinate in greek yogurt first if you like. I am a bit leary of liver as it can be rich for some but small amounts should be OK. Kibble is still the easiest. You can also make beef jerky that way. food for thought.
I make a bunch at a time and zip lock bag them and freeze. They keep well in freezer.
by Hired Dog on 13 October 2020 - 14:10
So, I pay with whatever the dog finds most valuable, be it a toy or food or whatever, within reason of course, that I can give to that dog.
Now, I have had people tell me that the dog is only listening to me because I have a toy to give him, ok, so what? If that dog does 30 KPH to me, super excited to see me or run back to me, job accomplished and no, I am not that vain with my dog that I demand that he comes to me because of who I am.
My dog wants to be with me, he does not have to, but he chooses to, because of the bond we created together, the rewards that come with that bond. He will occasionally bring me his football to bite and play tug with, even though he is not very big on toys.
Proper reward training teaches faster, makes a dog more reliable and creates a better experience for the dog and handler.
How do I know this? Because when I started out over 40 years a go, the only way we trained was with a choke or a prong collar and those were not pleasant experiences.
Can I train a dog without food? Sure, I know all about applying and releasing pressure, but, I can also walk home instead of drive my car too...again, why?
Here is something that you and others may find strange though, I DO NOT reward for any actual, real finds of substances that my dog finds in the REAL world...go figure!!
by ValK on 13 October 2020 - 15:10
please don't confuse a treat as integral part of relationship between dog and master and a treat as a mean to stimulate that dog to execute given task through the bribing.
by Hired Dog on 13 October 2020 - 15:10
The dog does NOT always get a treat either, that is why I said, proper use. Hope Valk is eternal and we all hope for something, including the dog.
A bribe is something you show a dog BEFORE you tell him to do something, a reward is what the dog gets AFTER it has performed a task and ONLY sometimes, not every time.
Finally, I prefer to call my self the owner or handler of my dog, not his master.
by Hundmutter on 13 October 2020 - 16:10
ValK, not all training is for work or competition, some is just about making an adopted dog livable with. Older dogs from rescue backgrounds often come with baggage.
Are you suggesting that if I take on a rescue dog to give it a decent home but it is not super easy to train I should then give it back to the shelter and tell them to kill it ?
And Hired Dog is correct, there is no reason humans should expect dogs to work for them for nothing; okay they get their 'wages' 'cos we feed them, and give them a safe place to sleep - but that is later; how is a dog supposed to recognise that something he is given five hours after, or whenever, is connected to the work he has been asked to do that day ? Not much point giving the dog a Payslip.
by Hired Dog on 13 October 2020 - 17:10
Hund, in my life in dogs, I have had several that needed to be washed from a program, but, I cannot in good conscience put a dog down, if its a sound dog. I had to do that once to my own two year old dog and, well, without going too much into detail here, it was not a time I wish to relive
I have no problem washing a dog, but, as you said, not all dogs are meant to be work dogs or even sport dogs and more then a few do come with baggage, they also need training...
As I have alluded to you previously, I have zero interest in being right or having anyone accept my ideas as gospel.
Try what I say, if you want to, if it works for you, great, if not, move on and try something else. Valk has his own ideas and beliefs and by the looks of things, he will stick by them no matter what.
I will continue to "pay" my dog because it works and because it produces results that are more reliable than praise or a pat alone.
As I said previously, anyone that started training 40 plus years a go, knows what methods were available and how they worked. Dog training has moved on, more and better methods came about because of many reasons and I, for one, am happy to utilize whatever works for the dog in front of me.
by ValK on 13 October 2020 - 21:10
hired, a treat indeed is an integral part of relationship like any other positively based interaction with own dog, be it active form or just relaxed rest together. why do you think food being used to establish connection and trust between unknown to each other human and animal?
you're no need to show that treat to dog before giving command. even stupidest dog are smart enough to establish logical link with "command - execution - something yummy". i personally few times have seen sly dogs that independently initiate the execution of an earlier learned trick in the hope to be given treat.
hundmutter, perhaps you're right. i never dealt with rescue dogs and have never thought about this. if i train dog - main goal is reliable and uncompromised execution of given tasks by dog, irregardless of that dog being used for real practical application or just companion dog like was all my personal dogs.
by Hundmutter on 14 October 2020 - 04:10
For myself, owning the dog has ALWAYS been the important thing; winning awards, or successful completion in any discipline, has always been secondary. Once a dog is with me, its for that dog's life; even if we tried and failed at whatever. I realise not everybody feels like this, and serious competitors in anything do not have room to hang onto every dog (and often the 'failed' dog would have a more interesting life elsewhere, rather than being sidelined in retirement).
ValK I'm glad I have succeeded in getting you to think about other sorts of dog ownership - someone has to do them, after all.
I don't understand, though, why you think those of us who sometimes train with food treats "show the treat to the dog before giving it a command" - I don't know anyone in GSDs who does that ! (They would have difficulty keeping the treat in their fingers, probably !) Yes, Pet owners shape by luring (getting dog to lie down etc by holding a treat under its nose) but for the sort of training most of us are thinking of here on PDB, we are talking about mainly having food in a belt or bag or pocket, where the dog can smell you have it, but cannot get at it. It only comes out as an actual reward on completion of the exercise.
by Hired Dog on 14 October 2020 - 04:10