by Centurian on 15 March 2020 - 18:03
I am quite well versed , not just versed , again quite well versed , concerning what is required of a canine for LE. I worked with officers and trained their dogs. Personally , I can handle these dogs .. that is not the issue - whether they can be ahndled buy someone. . My issue that these dogs that afe handlewr aggessive a not a dog for any endeavor with a handler , including the streets or LE ... These are the most terrible dogs for an officer to do LE with . I has written , they are best left to their own devises as guardian canines in places like junk yards. IMOp none of them are are suited for or should be allowed to work with anyone, irregardless if someone is skilled and knowledgable to woek in conjunction with them .
Duke .. absolutely and ... well stated . But I will tweak your words for conversation . Normally high in aggression and Normally high in hardness .as well as Normal KINDs of aggression and hardness . But , here is where i differ : no dog should ever , EVER** , attack the handler for any reason [ as I wrote with exception of severe / dire abuse or defending it's life - a reasonable hard so called correction is not abuse , abuse is abuse ]
BTW .. a little clarification about 'Prey' . A dog in Pursuit is not making prey . " Making Prey " is for an animal " the act of killing " . Pursuit is not synonomous with " making prey ". In order to make prey an animal may first pursue the prey [ it is a component ] but the animal has not 'made prey ' until it kills that animal it pursued . An animal can chase another animal but 'prey is not made until that animal is killed ' . In addition , an animal will Defend itself to save it's life , if it thinks it has to save it's life - it can bring itself to the brink of also maing a killing. So a dog that loses it's mind , it's senses , unwilling to take your lead or direction.... a dog that is tempermentally unsound I ask rhetorically speaking who becomes prey or defender , when the dog acts out ? I refernced dogs as hacving bden selectively bred to work with humans. German Shepherds .. they are herding dogs. that means geneticasaly they have a trait [ or should have that genetic gtrait ] ' to work in conjunction wtih and to want to take the directrion /lead from the shepherd. The dog being high enough in aggerssion to kill and to defend the flock yet at the same time not be so unblanced , unsound as to turn and bite the shepherd or to ' Make Prey " with the sheep . .
Smoking Joe ... so your mindset should be looking for lines with good quality and quantity , sound aggression , harndess ... and other features that Duke had not written such as stress level [ one of THE most important traits], revoerrytiomes , level of needed /suitable socailability [ even if that means aloofness /indifference ] . Although as Duke has correctly pointed out , yes the sreet traits are a little different than other avenues. But as I awkwardly have written , think about what a German Shepherd was bred for originally to do , i.e guard / protect the flock and work hand in hand with the shepherd, when you contemplate what you want to look for in the lines that you seek IMOP - again this is an opinion . The healthy attributes are similar in street dogs in a anner of perspective as herding [ I do mot mean exactly , I mean in a comparison] , yet differrent in intensity and amount. Dogs that bite the handler in the lineage , this is diametrically just the opposite of a great working dog .
by Smokin Joe on 16 March 2020 - 08:03
by duke1965 on 16 March 2020 - 08:03
the problem with labeling dogs on the internet is allways that it will upset some people and others will say its not true becuase they have this great dog at home who has the same great grandfather and he doesnot fit the bill
thought could be, if raiser and lupo nero are using this male, would there main goal be to produce familydogs,ore a little more maybe,
secondly, if you like the dog and feel comfortable around him, chances are you will be fine, I would recommend a dog with this pedigree to a serious workinghome, or experienced handler, but like I said before, not all dogs end up the way their pedigree predicts, and again, thats a nice pedigree overall to me
by Centurian on 16 March 2020 - 09:03
I have had dogs at 10 weeks old that would challenge you ,. They without hesitation give you a piece of their mind , and even try to bite you . I don't mean the avrage run of the mill puppy biting , I mean they have a different outlook and really mean to bite you ! I don't think in terms of age , but I think in terms of " what is in that dog's mind / what is it's Attitude in what it does . The how , when , where and why it does what ot does .
Also Smokin , Dealing with a dog is not so much simply corrections for it is as much mental and a function of your relationship and the dog's genetics . IMOp a truly handler aggressive dog .... you change nothing. Because a dog will generally , again generally , look to rise up in rank and will , given the chance . When that kind of dog sees that you no longer have the upper hand it will rise to the occassion . Why , because of what I have written , it is Temperament Deficient , this is a genetic problem and you can never change the gentics of the dog. the dog as I wrote is not squared away in the head and there is nothing you can do that will ever change that .
So Duke has given the readers something to consider : I think he wrote this several times and he is spot on . Prudent comment by Duke : Pedigrees are a steer in the right direction but they are very very limitted [ almost * to being worthless ] . When I bred , I tried to see*** the dogs , as well as had gotten info about all the dogs : Grandparents , parents , progeny , siblings[ very very important to see siblings !! . I went to see the dogs themselves at times too when I could . I did not rely on paper ..... without seeing the dogs . And I remmber : I don not concentrate on only the dam or the sire ,,,, both** are impodrtant . However I really really really sought out the ' motherline " for me the key is the motherline !!! Seeking out the motherline , the offspring / siblings was even more important than pedigees alone !!
So after this thread, where some have given good info ,[ especially Duke] IMOp you waste your time hereafter if you are that serious of a breeder and you don't see the dogs themselves . Sounds harsh but I am honest , I have no thing to gain by writing that , and it is the truth .
by Smokin Joe on 16 March 2020 - 09:03
by duke1965 on 16 March 2020 - 11:03
@ centurian, but many times also, the pedigree is right, I have a dog here now for testing, and by looking at his pedigree, I have some toughts about what he could show me in the test, as offspring of his grandfather, and littermate of grandfather had some issues (geneticly)
and the test of the dog showed me exactly what the pedigree told me before
by ValK on 16 March 2020 - 12:03
a dog will generally , again generally , look to rise up in rank and will , given the chance
i disagree with that.
sure, dominant nature of dog can create hardship, particularly for the people who not understand/don't feel the dog and not been able to establish balance in relationship with such dog.
you're right - handler aggression usualy is an innate trait and such dogs never should be used in breeding. but such trait not really so much relate to dominant nature. this more can be seen in the dogs, who don't like/not willing to interact/cooperate with human, albeit in general they not neceserily showing or trying to acheive alfa rank in pack or over handler.
leave that dog alone and it looks like there no problem exist at all.
by Centurian on 16 March 2020 - 16:03
Not knowing exactly what you mean I can just speculate . So if you mean leave the dog be as in let the dog do what it wants to .. then the dog has gained rank over you . The dog has gotten it's way rather than the dog taking your lead away from you , and/ or the ability to have it doing what you want it to do , when you want it to do it .
I wrote about handler aggression not a sole function and it's origin in dominance.
If you mean leave the dog alone as in let it naturally be a dog and let it do it's doggie thing , then you have no Relationship with that dog . The dog does not belong in it's heart to you .- there is no pack and that leaves the kind of dog with a pack of one . In it's mind it is just me and therefore I'm number one. Number one , unto itself answering to no one , responsible to no one. As you wrote : ..... the dogs, who don't like/not willing to interact/cooperate with human,... yes the dog is unto itself. And how ironic , in canines survival is more probable with 'pack' cooperation ... You are correct , I agree , dog aggression to handlers is about not cooperating with a human . A blatant aggressive protest is it's expression of refusal .
Now if we talk with this notion in mind , considering dogs for thousands of years have been selectively bred to cooperate with a human [ as do dogs in a pack cooperating with each other] this even more so illustrates how 'wacked out ' in the head these handler aggressive canines are !! And when you assert you requests to someone, and they blow you off , punch you in the mouth , Valk , that person dam well is lording it over you , expressing superiority over you- rank is invoved ! Put any word or label on it , but the result is the same whether that person is part of your group[pack] or not. Whether that dog is part of your social network/pack or not - it is expressing it's superiority over you ! . A dog or a person can try to express it's superiority over you simply by the way they look at you , never mind biting or punching you .. Whenever two people meet or a person and dog meets , even if it is a 10 second encounter , there is hierrachy established. Immediately you and the other person / dog have made a judgement, have created within each other thoughts , emotions etc. etc . " So leaving the dog" alone.. well they just won out... and you in essence have turned off the dog /handler relationship and the dog thinks even less of you .
Side note : last week I was giving a private lesson to someone that wants to do Sch . I have been teaching her to heel and how to get into the dog's head. Several weeks went by and the dog was sloppy . So I demonstrated how with my eyes and body I project to the dog. I gave her some instructions , fine tuned her ... Then I pointed out to her how she by changing her posture alone sent a message to that dog : " I am in charge , I am the leader , I will accept nothing less from you . Immediately for a rookie handler that dog performed a heel with 100% exactittude. No more attitude of hokey pokey antics from that dog. She never gave a so called correction to that dog , she never raised her voice or spoke 1 word to that dog. She changed the dynamics of that relationship and set her authority /rank just by her body positions and her body movement. That dog fell right into place , changed his attitude and performed as well as any high end trainerd dog. My point : whether you are part of the pack or just encountering a dog for the first time , believe me, that dog is sizing you up , and calculating what it will do with and for you . Either it will follow you or will decide , in some cases to protest/ to refuse to follow you . If you leave the dog alone it has lorded over you , even if you never see that dog again . You let a handler aggressive dog alone , it is not fine in my book - you have let the dog lord it over you ., it has become superior to you .
Vaslk you did write : "leave that dog alone and it looks like there no problem exist at all."
But it is a problem and it ALWAYS will be !! A dog that wants to do what it wants, when it wants.. OR ELSE , ...well I leave that up to you all to have your own viewpoint about ...
Valk , this is repectfully my thoughts , but I am open minded and willing to read what say you ?
by emoryg on 16 March 2020 - 17:03
Smokin Joe, I had planned on writing earlier, but the corona virus has me and the dogs relocating, so finding time to write a longer post had to wait.
As I mentioned before, I do not know Miro and I only know Chris on his accolades and his progeny on videos. My only personal experience with him was a female who was too nervy and had to be washed. Spod Lazov is a very respected kennel with many accomplishments. His breeding female Vandi di Dranel is well respected for her contributions to the breed. Most of the better males like Zorro can be traced back to Vandi. Upside pedigree is Drago Eqidius. Seen several nice dogs from him. Well balanced and confident. The dogs remind me of a diesel engine. They didn’t need revved up in order to keep on going and going.
Miro’s dam goes back on some nice lines as well. No doubts about the drives and hardness coming down through Troll and A litter Lutter. One of my favorite dogs is Crok. Another harder, very dominate male. There is no other working line male that I know of that had more repeat breedings than Crok. Not just two breedings, but three and sometime four times the same bitch was covered by him. That is incredibly rare and points directly to the desires of some kennels to keep producing his type. Hence my earlier post that maybe Miro will be another Crok.
As pointed out by Hexe and Duke, Raiser had a bitch under him. He also bred directly to Chris. Raiser must like a more dominate dog as he speaks of the need for high levels of dominance. He argues the dog should consider the helper as a rival. I agree with that philosophy and also believe the police dog, when tasked with physically apprehending, should also consider the suspect as an opponent and seek to dominate him through his aggressive actions. He must have the desire to fight his opponent and maintain his status as the aggressor. This is much easier said than done, and while the dog’s desire to dominate the helper on the field is shown in great abundance, very few police dogs have the ability to follow through with the same committed and desire on a real bite. In other words, the great majority of police dogs fail to carry the same dominance to the criminal on the street as they do to the helper on the training field. Dogs who are selectively tested for their extreme levels of confidence and dominance have a propensity to carry this behavior into police work. Bare in mind that with this dominance can sometimes come the baggage and at times may not be for the weak at heart.
Anna also comes from very good lines. That kennel has been around since the 70s and the initial stock was that of the DDR. You want to learn how to breed working dogs, this is one of the examples to follow. There is a well thought out plan bringing those bitches to the males that may compliment their attributes. If you follow bloodlines, you can see the vision of that kennel.
As far as handler aggression, Duke mentioned Haska and her line. Crok’s line could bring some issues as well. And though females are often identified with giving this aggression to the males, its rare to see them actually express it.
Bare in mind, this information is based upon my own experience with training and/or working with the dogs. Others may have different opinions. I prefer the dogs of extreme confidence and dominance. They were responsible for bringing me and hundreds of other officers home safely every night, and were loyal family members to my wife and children.
Your dog has a good pedigree and hopefully he will be everything you want. It all starts with the blueprint, and though by no means does it guarantee what dog you will get, based upon the pedigree, you’re off to a good start. Best of luck!
by Smokin Joe on 16 March 2020 - 18:03