by ValK on 13 March 2020 - 14:03
typically 5~6 month pup is old enough for handler aggression test.
by duke1965 on 13 March 2020 - 15:03
valk,disagree, there is multiple types of handleragression,
and what would you call "handler agression test" , how would you test for that, dogs mature and develope all trough maturing period, would be interested to see how you can test that at 5 or 6 months, any videos of that test ?
by Smokin Joe on 14 March 2020 - 15:03
by duke1965 on 14 March 2020 - 16:03
there are different forms of handler agression, and you cannot predict how a dog will respond to stimuli once matured(mentally), at such young age
by emoryg on 15 March 2020 - 07:03
Dominance and frustration are where most of the handler aggression comes from. As Duke mentioned, you can sometimes get a strong dog with extreme drives.
At 7 months you will not see much, maybe start seeing that he is not so easy to impress and starts showing signs of being pushy. He is getting close to the age where if he gets overly frustrated, he may start putting teeth on skin as he test the waters.
If you have raised him from a puppy, probably won’t unload until he’s getting close to 2 years, if you see it at all. Odds are good you won’t have issues.
Some handler aggression can be a sign of good things to come.
by Centurian on 15 March 2020 - 11:03
I refrained from posting on the PDB ... BUT .. IMOP much if what is written is simply not accurate .
For the novice , take my word if you so choose ,because I am 100% with certainty telling you and stating as a given fact :
The MOST IMPORTANT issue is to realize that ' handler aggression ' in a dog is a dire Temperament Fault. Not just faulty temoerament but direlly , severely , faulty . This is ' so called 'Handler Aggression " is an Unsoundness ,and an Abnormal Behavior idicative of faulty Mentality . That is a nice way of saying : the brain** of this type of dog is defective.. I clearly mean and I am definitively stating that the origin of handler aggression is from Faulty Genetics !!! This comment is not even debatable- you can try to debate this but that willmake what I write as untrue .
Please do understand and realize that ' Redirected Aggression ' is not the same as " Handler Aggression" . They are two , two entirety seperate phenomenon . Redirected Aggression is only one specifickind/ type / category of aggression that simply is redirected non specifically, unintentionally without forethought at anyone / anything . Handler Aggresssion is another completely different kind/category of aggression that is specifically and thoughtfully directed to the handler . Any dog that would think about directing it's aggreession to the handler , to the hand that feeds it , to it's partner [ aside from cases of sever handler abuse], is not normal in the head [ that is abnormal genetics ] . This is a Dangerous , very* very* dangerous* , good for nothing canine[ other than guarding a junk yard ] !! Short of yard guarding these dogs could do with [ meaning Figuratively- I am not telling anyone to do this ] a bullet to the head. Do y ou ot think , alaways vaving in mind the shi** head at the other end of the leash could acutally send to you to the hospital is not problematic ? Does anyone think that this is normal and acceptable in any dog and that this occurs just because a dog is dominant and/or frustrated ? Again I am stting definitively they are not ..
Redirected Aggression is also problematic... in that it lends itself to a dog that does not cope well normally and that cannot control it's actions /behavior . However ,this can be managed because the dog's emotions , thoughts , adn fesulting actions can be channelled, contrasted to and also unlike , Handler Aggression .
So .. Handler Aggression... it is exactly what it states it is .. it's Handler Aggression !
Accessing a puppy is another topic ..but Duke I say to you and mostly to ther novices , that a very very experienced person , one who understands genetics [ temperament and mentaity too] , as well as normal canine behavioral traits , can get a notion in predicting this in a puppy evauation ... and I leave any further commenting about this , at that ...
Please , take notice if you will : Dominance is not where Handler Aggression comes from .. There are multitudes of very very highly Dominant Canines and 99.99% or so, never ,ever, ever even think about, let alone display, any sort of handler aggression . Also many of these highly dominant dogs do quite well when frustrated too . In short there is much more to this than Dominance and Frustration but again I leave it at that ... ecpet there lies in the dog world confusion about dominace , Aggression , frustration and other overly used verbiage. That is akin to saying or equating only dogs that have a very very very high quotient to interact with , to work in synergy with , and to please their handler to be very submissive dogs - and that is not entirely true either. . An ellicited behavior is not the result of a sinlge trait alone... Handler Aggression does not come from Domiance and Frustration aloneor in combination.
BTW I did not read this thread just a few post , but for novices sake on this PDB , as much as I want to refrain from posting withiin my conscience I could not let novices think this misinformation was fact.
by duke1965 on 15 March 2020 - 12:03
LOL, good that you went against your own rules not to post and saved the world
there are different types of handler agression, in different bloodlines, triggered by different triggers that you cannot test on a six month dog normally, let alone on a puppy,
frustration/posession can be seen in young dogs, typically in KNPV lines malinois
furthermore, the type of handleragression in some lines is not really troubling me, I have had real good dogs from Baki/uncas line that would have handleragression if you really push them to far, but anybody with some common sense can work these dogs without problems
some other lines, I have dogs seen attacking owners for no reason, and experienced handlers not trusting their dog and getting rid of it, as it was not predictable as of when and why it would happen
Each to its own I guess, Centurian,but also if a dog bites its owner out of frustration,or domination or whatever reason, its handleragression to me
by Centurian on 15 March 2020 - 14:03
A bite to the handler .. is a bite to the handler. You can cover cow manuer any way one wants to but in reality no matter what, it remains still the same pile with the same stink ! Aside from extenuating circumsatnacez , for there are exceptions to many things in life , one excpetion being for example an abusive beating to a dog , ... any dog that bites the handler, plain and simple , is not squared away in the head !! That simple Duke.. You can justify that behavior and try to categorize that behavior this way and that a way .. but no matter what .. a bite to the handler is a bite to the handler !! So sad , really ,really , really Duke people find this behavior ... I say to the public : this behavior is way out of sorts and extraordiarily dangerous to have a dog that is handler aggressive. IMOp , doesn't matter is someone thinks they are soskilled a handler or macho macho and they physically think / do handle these dogs. That does not in and of itself make the dog or the hadler /dog team acceptable. Even in war time ..in the horros of war , who the hell in their right mind would want a dog that would do a 180 degree turn in the face of an opponent ,in the face of an enemy and bite them ? Who in their right mind would want a Patrol Canine or LE Canine or Sport canine and have that dog even think , let alone actually , turn to bite them ? IMOp if one does does not mind a dog like this , cares less about a dog like this either lacks canine understasnding or has a few lose screws in their head as well as the dog. And , that is an personal opinion , which may not be to far from fact.. As far as my Attitude : Aside from redirected aggression , ANY dog for ANY feason ,... and I don't care what reason one would want to justify a dog biting the handler..IMOP there is NO REASON - [ within normalcy] a dog should ever bite it's handler or even Think about it ! I would take that dog for a helicopter ride so dam fast it's eyeballs would be spinning in ti's socket.. BTW , I have seen dogs like this .. it is not so nice a situation the always having to tink this dog may tag you .. believe me .. get one if it pleases you and you will see , in street lingo, how wacked out they are !
Now Possesiveness , that is a different than a handler having a dog on a leash and biting the handler. These are TWO DIFFERENT contexts. And as well a dog biting a handler over possessing something and opposed to a dog wanting to posses something not in challenge to a handler .. BTW a dog wanting to bite ... is not the same as a dog wanting to posses. Prey ... and manyn of you here do not understand prey . Making Prey is the act of obtain ing a prey . Biting , is the act of killing the prey . Possing the prey is different than that because in order to posses , first you have to catch an animal , then you kill the animal , and then you either eat it or guard. They are again two entirely different contexts. But ... the big but is that if a dog does not accept RANK STATUS such that you can teach that dog to not challenge you when you want something that it wants and has or will not let the dog: pursue when it wants to pursue , or guard when it wants to guard.. kill when it want to kill and the dog bites the handler ? In all of these instanves you think Duke you that is Normal , good Mentality / Genetics ... In any of tnose contexts/situations , Duke that is equally is equally as dangerous !! Does anyone in their right mind think that a dog that does not desire to be subordinate to you is an acceptable and a normal canine ? I don't even want to start takling about a canine being selectively bred to be a domesticated animal ... A dog that will not submit to you , will not control it's impulses to accept that you can teach it to give you something when you deem it , is normal ? I am stating as a fact , that this is out of normalcy , bad mentality and genetics for a dog not to be in control of itself ,[ will not learn ] when the dog does not accept that you have absolute ownership over ALL ** resources . Even when it comes to another human : your dog bites another when you tell it to [ unless you teach ghe dog to bite automatically without command under certain threats] and not till then ,and you don't ever expect the dog to bite you instead under any circumstance .. none , zilch .. .
Honest to goodness.. Duke I hope you LOL , and are LOL heartily . I am glad handler aggression is not troubling to you ...I hope I can getr through to the people readfing.. I can't change the world , but all I ask is for people to stop and thiunk . JUST THINK for a moment !!
Duke youy write : " but anybody with some common sense can work these dogs without problems ". Yes these dogs can be worked by some , I have seen them myself. But it is not without a problem . Instead of concentrating on you performance and the dogs to achieve a goal , you will always , always have the thiught in the back of you mind - " will this dog tag me", you will always be on guard and prepared for this . The dog will always be willing and able to bite you without hesitation , .. to me ... that is a problem. You are supposed to be partners. If you have to lord it over these dogs to that degree you may be the only one that lords it ovdr that dog , that makes this dog constanly more than a public danger to very other walikng , existing person. I had a friend that owned a dog like this , and the dog bit his wife bad , real bad ! Why in the world have to deal with those type of dogs where there exist many .. MANYYYYY canines that are phenomenal working dogs and that work with and for you - Why deal with one that you have to worry about ? Why in the world would one opt for handler aggressive dogs or dogs from those lineages when you can just as well a perfoming dog with good mentality and genetics ?
Duke , I agree, you can see frustration and possesion in young pups. However Duke , you always talk in generalities. How many times do I have to write that there are qualitative and quantative aspects to genetic behavioral traits and expressed behaviors. For example , yes, we look for a dog to posses - that is a super trait. Also in possesing we desire the dog to be able to perservere. However , when a dog wants to possess and perservere such that it will not hesitate to bite you ,to not be in control itself and take your direction having been taught - THAT Difference in degree makes a whole different canine. An unbalanced , unsound canine temeperament deficient canine at that , over aggressive lacking self control . . The differences in those categories , quantity and quality , make a big big big diffence . Howevewr , some people simply cannot get it through their thick skulls , that amount of aggression above and beyond a certain point is ABNORMAL AGGRESSION !!! DITTO goes for the quality of the AGGRESSION . So.... if one truly undertstand the canine , the canine mind , genetics as they all relate to TEMPERAMENT [ even in puppies] you can get a guestimation about the future of that pup if not an actual make up of that individual pup. And that is exactly why I wrote.. I am trying to save the world .. but you do a very very very big injustice whenyou write that iot si not troubling to you to see handler aggresion in lines. ! Duke , I have no problem with you as a person ... And I concede that you have all the right to state you comment , ideas , and so on . My purpose Duke is to not put you down , but your notion*** of what a dog should be and what should be acceptable , is .. well just, just .
Yes Duke to each their own ... But I will add : " Let your conscience be youy guide " and " be careful for what you wish for because you just might get it [and much more than you bargained for ] " .
by duke1965 on 15 March 2020 - 15:03
Centurian,I agree with you partially, and that is why I would never sell certain dogs, with certain pedigrees, like this one of Op, to first time handlers, or family situations, to avoid all risk, but then again, I am working with LE and you need to have a certain level of hardness, strength and agression in a dog to work the street, and with these dogs I find it totally understandable that these dogs only will take a certain level of stupidity from the handler
The dogs I mentioned I had from baki/uncas line for example, are very good dogs to work the street, and WILL NOT attack the handler for any stupid reason, like some other lines will do
so I have no problem with that, as we can expect a certain level of knowledge and common sense from those who want to be a police dog handler
on other words, if you need a car only for grocery shopping, dont buy a ferrari
by Smokin Joe on 15 March 2020 - 16:03