German shepherd breeders specially ddr pls answer - Page 15

Pedigree Database

 

by Rik on 08 January 2020 - 21:01

it's really kind of bad form to post pics of someone else's dog and speak negatively of them.

unless, of course, one's dog has placed in front of the dog in some documented area, conformation, work, tracking, dock diving. anything?

just saying,
Rik

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 09 January 2020 - 04:01

ValK has said (on PDB / told me in PMs/ maybe both) that in breeding the type of dog that existed / was developed for Border Patrols in the East, quite a few other breeds were factored in, to keep that harder temperament in their performance. Which fits with what Rik tells us. So, seriously, there is 'mongrelisation' - even though the overall result stayed that the dogs almost all looked like GSDs nonetheless. Granted not all 'DDR dogs' were Border Patrol dogs, ValK - but I am looking at what is being said on websites & elsewhere to 'big up' the stock that is being sold as modern-day 'DDR lines', and it seems to me,, often as not that it is that concept of 'manstopper' / less than friendly animal which is promoted.

My concern is, that is all being done still using the image of the GSD (mainstream breed) that has resulted in it being so hugely popular ( e.g. see Rhumphrey's figures ) both in terms of working/sports dogs, and pets/ companions, and dogs to exhibit as Show specimens. Which I see as all part of the con being perpetrated on buyers by much of the current wave of 'DDR' sellers. So OK go with the kind of dog you in particular think is great; noone is saying  "do not advertise a dog or family of dogs that you can prove are producing the sort of temperament & results you advertise" - but it isn't really a GSD, so don't do it off the back of those who put in decades of hard work in developing the main strands of this breed, in line with the wishes of its originators (or at least their various interpretations of that); don't undermine the input, strike out alone with what you believe in, go your own separate path. [ White Shepherds did it - whatever many of us may think of the results, they are selling puppies ! ]  Otherwise when it goes tits up - as it may well do - its the whole of the breed which will get the blame and the bad rep (again).


by apple on 09 January 2020 - 06:01

Rhumprey7,
Very good post. You could extend your premise to the entire breed (working lines) in that certain traits have been bred away from because the market for them is so small. The market for the breed has largely become pets and sport. Many consider genetic social aggression (the urge to bite strangers) as a fault, when in reality, it has a role in working breeds in certain operations. With sport and pets being the market, it is very apparent why this trait is all but lost. Same could be said for dominance. One breeder of so called old school Czech dogs promotes his lines as something different that has preserved the old school traits, but if you look at their current stud dogs, their pedigrees are more and more based on top sport dogs such as Fero. It is marketing for a naïve market.
Hundmutter/Valk,
I would be interested in hearing what other breeds were outcrossed to in the old DDR dogs. I have heard Rottweilers were used. I find it interesting that the same is done with the non FCI Mal X's, which can be superior dogs, but even with that "breed", there is a shift toward a different type of dog from the old style police dog who was sharp and didn't care for strangers.

by apple on 09 January 2020 - 06:01

Rhumprey7,
Very good post. You could extend your premise to the entire breed (working lines) in that certain traits have been bred away from because the market for them is so small. The market for the breed has largely become pets and sport. Many consider genetic social aggression (the urge to bite strangers) as a fault, when in reality, it has a role in working breeds in certain operations. With sport and pets being the market, it is very apparent why this trait is all but lost. Same could be said for dominance. One breeder of so called old school Czech dogs promotes his lines as something different that has preserved the old school traits, but if you look at their current stud dogs, their pedigrees are more and more based on top sport dogs such as Fero. It is marketing for a naïve market.
Hundmutter/Valk,
I would be interested in hearing what other breeds were outcrossed to in the old DDR dogs. I have heard Rottweilers were used. I find it interesting that the same is done with the non FCI Mal X's, which can be superior dogs, but even with that "breed", there is a shift toward a different type of dog from the old style police dog who was sharp and didn't care for strangers.

by Gustav on 09 January 2020 - 09:01

There is such a lack of knowledge, and speculation, and ignorance from some of these posts on the DDR dogs. There are no absolutes, or definitive type, nor was the DDR dog mongrolized as has been intimated...smh! Most advertised DDR dogs are of a certain type just as most West German lines are of a certain type also. These types have been created by selective breeding for exaggerated traits....pure and simple...and to my way of thinking they both lack balance and versatility.

by ValK on 09 January 2020 - 11:01

Hundmutter, apple
in DDR grenztruppen had endless supply of dogs from civilian breeders and never was in needs to experiment.
in Czechoslovakia border had several breeding facilities under name zPS and did some experiments crossbreeding GSDs to wolves but again, i didn't hear them to outcross GSD to other breeds of dogs.
somewhere near Moscow the military kennel Red Star have developed so call easteuropean shepherd dog (on foundation of GSD) and the breed black terrier. in available about this facility old videos seems like they used many different breeds, including both kind of shepherd dogs, caucasian and central asian dogs, above mentioned black terrier dogs and some breeds i'm not familiar with.
in my own experience, the border service didn't have benefits of civilian involvement in production of GSDs and was in needs to rely on it's own, using their own dogs and often importing fresh blood from DDR but i never seen or heard about using breeds other than GSD in border breeding or any sort of experimenting. and of course their approach to selection wasn't with thought in mind to provide family type of dogs. accent was on physically strong with pronounced dominant temperament type of dogs.
in another topic i already mentioned that majority among rejected youngsters was rejected due too high dominant/independent temperament which bring difficulty to reliable control that dog during the duty.

by apple on 09 January 2020 - 12:01

Thanks for the clarification. The Eastern European Shepherd (Vostochnoeuropejskaya Ovcharka-VEO) is being produced and sold by Eurosport K9, who is in Slovakia I believe. I was not impressed with the videos of their dogs, but they reportedly make good police dogs.

by apple on 09 January 2020 - 12:01

Thanks for the clarification. The Eastern European Shepherd (Vostochnoeuropejskaya Ovcharka-VEO) is being produced and sold by Eurosport K9, who is in Slovakia I believe. I was not impressed with the videos of their dogs, but they reportedly make good police dogs.

by stormins on 09 January 2020 - 12:01

Gustav

 

There is such a lack of knowledge, and speculation, and ignorance from some of these posts on the DDR dogs. There are no absolutes, or definitive type, nor was the DDR dog mongrolized as has been intimated...smh! Most advertised DDR dogs are of a certain type just as most West German lines are of a certain type also.

 

AMEN to that .... I think that's why the OP wanted the posters to list their DDR kennel ...... as the old saying goes those that do ..do and those that dont "teach"

 

I first went into business in 1981. It didnt take long to realize that so many in the industry I was in were more worried about  impressing others with their "knowledge" then their customers.  After selling my previous businesses  I found the same in the dog world.... plenty of people who jump on a soapbox  and diss those that are actually doing something with their own money on the line.

 

PURE and SIMPLE  ...The DDR of old was bred for the  customers needs (the East German Government)   The DDR  today is being bred for todays customers needs.   Are they the same needs? Obviously not.... How many of the prognosticators Gustav referred  to can REALLY handle a DDR or any other Shepherd that will crawl the leash on you?   I would love to see some videos of them doing that or the scars from the  bites.  Let me go a step further ... if you have never been bitten by a Shepherd while working with them then how can you possibly claim any knowledge or "teach" any of us let alone the old timers,  whose knowledge I am interested in, what a DDR "should be"

And Therin lies the problem of producing  a very "civil" dog....WHO IS GOING TO BUY THEM?

The customer has the money and dictates the demand.... as Rhumphrey said  and I paraphrase here ... if you take ANY money for your dogs then you are in it for the money so dont be a hypocrite.

We no longer have a need for DDR type dogs to contain a population wanting to escape as most  of us  on this thread liven in some type of an open society


by stormins on 09 January 2020 - 12:01

Xpyrothechnic

 

I just noticed reading through other past posts that you was asking for old ddr breeders this was in april 2019, valk posted a whole long list of DDR breeder

I Have that list Valk so kindly posted before which was all current DDR breeders....

What I asked him this time was for a much smaller group ....if there is even any left that were breeding DDR's back in the old East Germany

1) Who are those "Old former DDR Breeders" that are still breeding??






 


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