by Hired Dog on 05 September 2019 - 17:09
He was mostly old Belgian and some Dutch bloodlines and he was indeed dangerous. How dangerous? He was retired at age 4 because of his aggression issues and he was a liability.
That was not an easy nor an enjoyable dog to work or live with, but, he was the best at what he did. Part of me is very happy that dogs like that are not around as much anymore, part of me misses that raw aggression and determination he had for the job.
Today, I like a more balanced dog, one that can be neutrally social and has the proper drives to work, but, its not a danger to society nor a liability
by apple on 05 September 2019 - 18:09
I can easily believe that some of those dogs from the 80's were dangerous. It is kind of like with the Rottweiler. Now they all suck. What I have come to believe about the Dutch Mal X's of today is that the ones that are truly dominant are much more dominant than say a dominant GSD. I know Mike at Loganhaus changed his breeding approach and stopped breeding dogs like Arko and highly dominant dogs because their handlers kept returning them because they couldn't handle them. My impression of van Leeuwen's dogs is that his goal is to produce dominant dogs that are quick to anger and love the fight. They definitely are not capable of being in pet homes, whereas some of the other Dutch Mal X's can do fine in a pet home unless the handler is a total novice. The club I train with has almost exclusively non FCI KNPV line Mals and all but one are super social and the one that is just used as a stud had a poor foundation in Holland because all his handler did when he brought him out was bite work, so his issue is probably more learned than genetic, except that genetically, he probably would have been a very good police dog with the correct foundation. It was not because he was dangerous, but rather, no control was trained into the dog.
by Hired Dog on 05 September 2019 - 18:09
As I get older, I am no longer in the mood to "wear" a dog because I stepped the wrong way or I looked at his left foot on the last Friday of the month, at 4:30 PM before the bells rang....
Society today, as well as most agencies cannot handle the liability that comes with those dogs and as others have mentioned, handlers are not experienced enough to be able to handle a dog like that.
I agree with you that some of the dogs you mentioned are much more dominant then the GSD breed is today, but, I think that is because of how they breed the GSD and why.
I have no idea why someone would breed dogs today like Dick does, who does he sell them to?
To be completely honest, part of me misses that type of dog, but, the logical side of me remembers how much "fun" it was dealing with one and I come to my senses.
by K9L1 on 05 September 2019 - 20:09
I agree 100% that these old school dominant aggressive dogs can be a huge piece of work. They are very keen on sending fear and once they detect this is you , some of them will push you to the limit even trying to gain top pack rank . In the end even good handlers choose to live out a kind of “ mutual respect “ with the dog. If your fear of such a dog keeps being sensed by the dog , you will have to return him.
if I’m not mistaken I think Arko Kikkert is a Arno grandson through Castor.
There are still a few GSD studs that are known to produce uncontrollable dogs irregardless of who raise them.
by K9L1 on 05 September 2019 - 21:09
Both types of aggression can occur early in the life of a dog ; how can we tell the difference between the two in a young dog?
I think it might not be correct to just write it off as weak nerve , which those who want super social dogs seem to do.
by BlackMalinois on 06 September 2019 - 08:09
video real live situation Amsterdam from police K9 bite other own agent in the earlier days. No good control thats why its important such dogs need a good match with a capable handler .Especial with strong dominant dogs some handlers have problems dog letting out on command .in sportworld this cost points in real live situation it hurt and hospital.
by Hired Dog on 06 September 2019 - 11:09
My dog was not handler aggressive, per say, but, he would not allow you to interact with a subject once he was on a bite, his "out" command sucked, of course the way the out was taught back then and still today is terrible. I could choke him off and he would not try to bite me, but, he was VERY food aggressive, a habit taught to him by someone when he was a puppy.
His intensity for the hunt and the desire to engage anyone at anytime was off the charts, but, it was not balanced and it was very one sided, he was in it strictly for himself and no one else. His obedience was good with a 2x4, if you get my meaning.
At the end of the day, he was a great police dog and maybe he would have had a longer career had he had a better up bringing and training, but, that is all speculation. He had a brother who worked for a nearby agency that was exactly the same way.
by BlackMalinois on 06 September 2019 - 11:09
Good story Hired dog there will be more good police dogs but with the wrong handlers you will
never see them in duty
by Centurian on 06 September 2019 - 11:09
And I still have this problem with officers to this day . IMOP , ... this is not a good police dog when you cannot with all your might even pull that dog off a bite . Not in the least . There is such a topic that gets way overlooked when it comes to the German Shepherd dog in it's performance and with in the the breeding - And that is " Mentality ". Just because a dog can do a task , that does not mean it is a good dog nor does it mean that we should not overlook the the HOW and the WHY , the dog performs the task .
For years I have worked with dogs like this and not like this , in sport as well as police training. But many many officers and breeders fail to realize that there is such as thing as quantity and quality related to aggression. They simply canno that is just " Unacceptable / abnormal / way to high in kind and intensity " of Aggression . The sad part is that many think these are good working dogs ... IMOp .. they are not . If I have to take a board and wack myn dog off the head to getr him off the bite .. IMOp ,that is definately ,, most definately not a dog I would ever desire as a police dog , sport dog , home companion dog , personal protection dog . IMOP these aren't ' good dogs '. To see and hear about dogs like this is personally disturbimg to me.
by emoryg on 06 September 2019 - 12:09
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