Why do some dogs maul? - Page 2

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by apple on 03 September 2019 - 16:09

Valk,
The dog in the video is a police dog. A well trained police dog will be exposed to severe pressure. The dog is still taught to grip, push and fight, not to inflict "multiple tearing bites, placed onto different parts of opponent." They are taught controlled aggression. So of course it is "artificial" because it is taught to the dog and for a reason. There would not be police dogs if they "mauled" the bad guys due to the use of excessive force. Some police dogs are trained to shift their bite, but not to bite indiscriminately anywhere and everywhere. So it has nothing to do with being artificial or correctly trained police dogs not being exposed to active, overwhelming resistance. A dog fight has nothing to do with apprehending a human via a trained dog biting.

by Centurian on 03 September 2019 - 16:09

" Why do some dogs maul ? " .... Simply - because they can ,. And in doing so , mauling . however you define it , works for them ... Pure and simple , that is why they maul .


by K9L1 on 03 September 2019 - 16:09

apple
that's the legendary Wibo. Love him a lot. I read some where that Dick said he could not play ball with Wibo , because doing that was like going to war each time.

By mauling I mean the dog shifting bite position in rapid succession during the encounter. The victim usually ends up with bites ( often quite injurious )  on face, arms, and  torso.

by apple on 03 September 2019 - 16:09

I heard that also. My understanding is that Dick breeds for a "dryer" dog meaning they are not so much prey dogs that are even that interested in toys, but tend to be dominant and angry dogs. The shift in Holland and elsewhere is not to breed this type of dog anymore because handlers can't handle them. They are looking more for highly social and confident dogs with extreme prey and hunt drive.

by K9L1 on 03 September 2019 - 16:09

Apple I think the latter one is the type Mike S in WV goes for. I think the former type is what Valk keeps pointing out that has been lost in the GSD.

emoryg

by emoryg on 03 September 2019 - 16:09

Not sure if this topic is referring to mauling bite equipment or an actual person. If it has to do with biting equipment, you can talk drive theory until the cows come home. If referring to biting a person, it may help to identify other impulses from within certain dogs.

In my opinion, there are the rare dogs with the desire/impulse to dominate a person (dominance aggression) which is a desirable quality when they are tasked with criminal apprehension. This impulse has nothing to do with the other drives responsible for chasing and biting cats, squirrels, balls, bitesuits, sleeves, or defending a bone, box, territory or mate. It has everything to do with allowing the dog [who is genetically compelled to act upon this impulse to dominate through aggressive behaviors] to be put into environments/scenarios where he is permitted to dominate the suspect to satisfy his needs of control (submission).

These dogs and are far from the fear based aggression dogs that bite people, children included, for other various reasons and generally associated with mauling. It seems all dominate aggressive dogs tend to be thrown into the same category and labeled as dangerous, unpredictable or uncontrollable, with little acknowledgment that it is not an all or nothing behavior. It is predictable and can be isolated and controlled. There are a few sound dogs that also possess this dominance impulse. This is where having a stable genetic background is of the utmost importance. I believe it is the strong, confident stud who counters the sharpness from the female possessing very specific traits who may ‘sometimes’ gift their male offspring with this dominance.

Generally speaking, dogs tested and selected for their dominance aggression tend to be adept with powerful and convincing grips, and typically stay on one spot when tasked with biting the suspect. These dogs are taught to release the criminal, not to bite. They already have the desire/impulse to bite, you just show them what situations they are allowed to act upon those impulses. Their biting mechanics are similar rather it be from having received extensive bite training or as green as the grass from their farmer’s field. Another thing of interest, this type of dog bites where they want. You can feed sleeves or suits all day but they will make the decision where to bite the suspect based upon instinctive actions and have zero dependency on target training. This may explain the seldom lack of exchanging grip or erosion of grip when stressed, as they do not look for a pacifier or place of safety to bite. Easiest police dogs you’ll ever train, best police dogs you’ll ever work.

Due to their inherit levels of confidence and strong desire to dominate, the stress is primarily kept in check and exchanging grips (if that’s considered mauling) is seldom seen, but if enough stress is introduced it will eventually erode their biting mechanics. It is as this point where even the most confident, goal oriented dogs probably no longer see the suspect as a challenge from his opponent, but more than likely he is now perceived as a threat. Alternative biting behaviors will be displayed such as loss of commitment, grip slip, thrashing, exchanging grip, seeking safety, etc. This change of behavior from stress can often be delayed by explaining to the dog that he can attempt to eliminate the stress by biting deeper and harder. This dog will counter his grip to seek submission and exercise control over his opponent. With the power and conviction of the grip, this normally comes early, with the majority of conflicts lasting only a matter of seconds. Several factors, not controlled by the dog, may prolong or shorten the duration of the dog vs person encounter.

This is a naturally satisfying, goal oriented event for this dog and the ability to control him must be directed at 1) immediately removing the dog from the proximity of the suspect [this preventing rebites from lack of impulse control] and 2) reinforcing the behavior once the dog leaves the criminal [giving him a reason to want to leave].

There are times when these dogs can be forced into situations where they retaliate with other means of aggression. The dog’s demeanor changes significantly and verbal control of the dogs is probably always lost. I have never seen or personally been able to control the dog with only verbal commands when he bites a suspect through retaliation. The biting mechanics shift to an injury driven status and grip exchanges can be seen as the dog seeks to satisfy other impulses acting from within (taking it personally, as its known)…

Not sure if that's the mauling this topic is referring to, but that’s part of my experience with it.

by apple on 03 September 2019 - 17:09

K9L1,
Mike told me almost all the people in Holland he knows and deals with are breeding the type of dog he prefers in terms of Mal X's/DS's. I think the type of dog Dick is breeding for is the exception to the rule, which was not true in the past. As for the GSD, I think SchH/IGP has led to a loss of valuable genetics and an increase in less desirable genetics, making it much harder to find a healthy, strong police prospect.
Emoryg,
I agree with most everything you said, but a well trained, modern police dog is taught to target certain areas which increases the likely they will target those areas rather than biting where they want. That is not to say they won't bite whatever they can if a taught target area is not available, but targeting increases a dog's ability to dominant a person because it allows for a strong, certain grip.

by duke1965 on 03 September 2019 - 18:09

and that is why we are where we are right now, with all breeds that should be suitable for LE,

personally saw Dick training with this dog several times, To compare Dicks dogs with any other preybiting sportdog is stupid, so to drag this dog into such discussion is useless, also Dicks dogs are strongly inbred/linebred, which explains his breedings produce identical type strong dogs and should be a hint to all the outcross breeders out here Wink Smile

 

by duke1965 on 03 September 2019 - 19:09

apple writes :wouldn't necessarily say this bite is not a prey bite, but there is no prey movement stimulating the dog

Apple if you think a trained dog needs prey movement to be activated in prey, you might want to read some pavlov again Wink Smile

by ValK on 03 September 2019 - 19:09

apple, i saw your second post after responding, thus my answer not in regard of that dog.
nevertheless it doesn't matter. the fact that the widely practiced manner of teaching the dog to fight the human, absolutely disregard aspect of dog's safety and survival in such confrontation, overwriting knowledge, embedded into dogs by the mother nature.
even in your video, object of bite simply seats and yelling instead of conduct counterattack or even protecting itself. would be more informative the video, in which that dog met active resistance.
would that dog will react on rised for strike hand?
what will happen if in real life event opponent have some sort of weapon or anything can be used as such and attempt to smash so conveniently non moving head of that dog or stab that dog?

emorig, after all, everything you said above, still an artificially embedded manner to hold engagement in confrontation with opponent in the way, seen as appropriate for certain scenarios in apprehension.
in every, albeit quite rare cases, when untrained single dog mauled the person, mauling done not by single bite. even unprepared victim of dog's attack, intuitively will perform actions to protect itself. in response to such movements, dog also switches his bite with purpose to prevent infliction of the harm to him and at same time to inflict more harm and eventually overpower that opponent.
in any know case of human death from being mauled by dog, the death didn't come from single bite.


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