Pulling instead of Pushing Bite - Page 8

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by Centurian on 13 July 2019 - 11:07

B. E ,

I enjoyed that video - I and I bet many others do too . I really like the dog ! I like the dog's character and kind and amount of aggression . This was a very very nice perfromance by the dog. [ of course I do need to tell you that :-) ] . It is nice to have people see the composure and poise of this dog , and the self control . The dog was well trained !! You no doubt had nice decoy/helper work and you handled him well too .

The readers can compare this dog , who is very very secure , confident , powerful in prescence, in the bark/guard . His ears are up nice , he is relaxed- he is calm cool [ not frantic or hectic] and well focused etc etc as opposed to the dog I described a number of posts back that I did not like as a Police K9 for my friend. , whose " ears were so far back that they could touch his butt " .

by ValK on 13 July 2019 - 15:07

centurian, i'm curious where did you see aggression?


by yogidog on 13 July 2019 - 16:07

I have the same question as valk. What aggression ❓. I like the dog but I see a well trained excise and dog that is super confident in the exercise. I see no fight and no aggressive behaviour. An excellent example of running the exercise many times. A bit like ipo routine well rehearsed. You cannot put this video in with real street work imo and I'm only looking at this video.

by Centurian on 13 July 2019 - 17:07

Well Yogi and Valk .... What do YOU [ both ] think Aggression is ? Please give your definition and then I will reply ...

Valk ...I know you have worked with Border Partol dogs. I mean this in a kind way Valk , as gentleman without critism for I do I admire people that work Patrol canines. Sometimes I have the impression , that having worked patrol canines that you are locked into that avenue , locked into a very very steamlined way of seeing canines. I have seen and worked many different kinds of canines and " TYPES " of GSs in various types of protection work ...

Even though I fully comprehend your meaning when you discuss ' letting a dog grow into it's instinct ' . That is fine and good if you think of a dog like a computer that in the sense of ' just let the pre loaded program run it's course '. If you have a dog that is 100% pure genetics , a biting machine unless or you have a junk yard dog , or a dog to take someone out , a killer dog , that may be all well and good for that certain specific purpose. .

However , also in the real world are different bents of GS [ and other breed canines as well ] that have varying types/kinds of aggression [ quality ] predominately and also different in the amount [ quantity ] to serve mankind in different disciplines , tasks . Case in point .. dogs doing sport have a certain genre of aggression in kind and amount. My sport dogs for Sch were different than the ones I did Ring Sports with that were also different than my personal protection dogs and the dogs I trained for State Police , some of which were used for tactical demployment. Rhetorically speaking - so , are we to only think of aggression when a dog is looking to seriously do irreparable harm to that person , cripple that person , even to kill someone ? Case in point too  , the police GS that can be used in a low , next to no crime , 10,000 population rural community may be a very very different police GS than you want in a Metropolitan city with 8 million people or the US military at that . That is to say , a good working dog doesn't necesarily have to fit the mold of a Border Patrol GS. Curious , when you had border patrol dogs , once sent to apprehend , did you ever implement a call off with that dog, a moment before it was to bite ? This I will tell you : I would say to the average person : try doing that with a dog that you never ever channeled it's instinctive behavior and just let the dog come into it's own way , it's instincts , without ever effecting and affecting those instincts .. Or try doing that with a dog so high in aggression that it cannot control itself / control it's instinctive behavior.

Someone explain : Your idea/notion - What does it take to call a canine aggressive and a behavior that is does aggression ?


by yogidog on 13 July 2019 - 18:07

Aggression is in the eyes the ears tell a story the tail and postures tell its part. In my dogs I look for natural aggression strong presents eye contact and more. I see a trained hold and bark with very little natural presents. Very well trained routine. I actually like this dog but the video doesn't do him justice imo I'd like to see a more natural display of this dog
Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 13 July 2019 - 20:07

It doesn't do him justice, But I also kept him in prey on purpose. Unfortunately there isn't going to be anymore bitework for him since his trachea is crushed and scar tissue has built up.
I can only hope to breed another one like him. He's so clear headed, versatile and a powerhouse of a dog. I wish I could start over with him.


by emoryg on 14 July 2019 - 12:07

EB, Athos is a nice dog.  He looks like a big, powerful boy and happy with himself.  Not so sure I would want to feel that big head clamping down on me.  Sorry to hear about the trache. 

There is no aggression in the video because he’s in the romper room with his playmate.  You two go for a drive and some dirtbag come looking to take your wheels and then you see his aggression.  Not on the playground.  The helper can probably take off the suit and come over and socialize with him shortly after.  I policed with dogs who would pull the sleeve or suit from the trunk of the patrol car, carry it on the training field to try and find someone to give him a bite.  The biting game is great way to establish control and condition desired behaviors.  The aggression should already be there and available to be called up when needed. 

It was a good video on a push or pull topic.  I can see the dog displaying learned behavior and then as the helper applies more points of contact, the dog does what mother nature tells him…he pulls.  Soon as the pressure is off he pushes again.  All dogs do this; enough pressure and they all pull.  Herein lies the problem.  When the helper raps the dog up to tight and the dog’s instinctive behavior takes over, (pulling) the helper unwraps and the dog stops.  Your dog already shows the desire to counter his grip and his helper would have no problems teaching him that when he gets too wrapped, the way to victory is not by pulling, but by biting deeper and harder.   Stop reinforcing the pull.  Wait for the other behavior to appear and then reinforce by removing the pressure.  This training slides the threshold in the dog’s favor which he can use for other encounters where pressure creates a state of emotional change.  But in the end, all dogs will eventually pull.  Mother nature always has the last word.

Good luck on your quest to find another one just like him, or one even close.

by Centurian on 14 July 2019 - 12:07

Yogi , yes we can tell a lot from a dog's eyes . But eye's are not by themselves , aggression . Routine or not a routine ,,,, irrelevant . I am still interested in the notion of what is or constitutes ' Aggression '. 

      Is the thought that aggression only manifests when a dog wants to kill someone? take someone out ? I will not give more comment until I hear about " what is Aggression " . But  I will start before I comment any further by saying : " Aggression"  is a multi-dimensional , a multi- layered and a complex phenomenon. BTW , a dog or a person can be most certainly be or become aggressive , even while playing a game , now can't they ?

by duke1965 on 14 July 2019 - 13:07

LOL centurian, you start to sound like Prager more and moreWink Smile


by yogidog on 14 July 2019 - 13:07

This is not the centurian show. Contrary to what you may think you are not the teacher with all the correct answers. I do enjoy reading your comments as much as I do other's but imo your opinion is not always right. Iv learned some things from you and other things I take with a pinch of salt. So share your opinion on the question you have asked. iv shared my opening comment on what I look for in the first stage of aggression.

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