Pulling instead of Pushing Bite - Page 4

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by apple on 27 June 2019 - 11:06

Valk said, "What a point in imprint the manner of fight in dog, other than earn higher points on a sports field."
Valk said, "What one will achieve through teaching the dog to target particular part of opponent body"

Teaching and assessing targeting can tell you a lot about a dog and targeting a dog's aggression is one of the most basic fundamentals in bite work. Targeting involves teaching the dog to bite different places on the suit, not just one place, which would contribute to the dog seeing the suit as a prey item, just like always biting a sleeve. If a dog hasn't learned to target different areas, indecision as to where to grip can cause the dog to make a last second decision leading to a grip in an area where it is difficult for the dog to maintain. Teaching targeting also contributes to the decoy's safety as well as the dog's. The dog needs to target areas that the decoy can absorb so as not to jam the dog and injure him. A dog that has learned to target will possess more commitment to bite under stress. This adds clarity to the dog in a real encounter. Along with targeting goes teaching a full and punishing grip which gives the dog a feeling of control over his adversary. Teaching a dog to target different areas of the suit as well as targeting a sleeve and a hidden sleeve is the proper way to develop a civilly aggressive dog. Changing areas for the dog to learn to target will create stress which the dog can work through and become stronger and more confident. Inside bicep bites are scarier for a dog. That is why KNPV dogs are taught to bite the bicep. They are trying to select for police dogs and they want to be sure the dog has the confidence to bite the inside bicep. It is not so much because that is the best place for a dog to bite. With police dogs, dogs that are not taught to target and bite recklessly and transfer their bites to a lot of different places can lead to defense attorneys claiming the dog was taught to use lethal force. Targeting shows the dog has been taught to bite in only non lethal areas. In police work, the bite is only for pain compliance in order to subdue the subject. Targeting can quickly help weed out inferior dogs who tend to shift their grip further and further away from the core of the decoy. Targeting is also fundamental in teaching a dog how to fight. It is analogous to teaching a boxer or martial artist how to fight. It is not just for points on a sport field.  And I don't agree that under stress, all pushers will become pullers.

by Centurian on 27 June 2019 - 12:06

Apple , You wrote one of the best commentaries on this thread , IMOp. You explained better than I , why we took targeting so seriously ! Also , that gives a little better understanding too , for the reasoning why I start off 8 week puppies biting all over the different parts and every apart [ not the neck and face ] of my body ... Furthermore , you give wonderful rationale as to why I also went on and on and on , about targeting in this thread . In addition , you explained , why it is so important for the decoy /helper to intertact with the dog in the most correct and optimal manner. Yes , there is so much more to targeting than meets the eye , just as there is so much more to the bite of a dog than meets the eye. I appreciate your shared explanation / thoughts - it will be quite insightful for those in the learning process and better yet , those decoys that think they know it all may actually learn a little something from you !

Emoryg - Yes , biting near the face area is quite dangerous , and that IMOp goes beyond the bounds of doing ' sport '.

Juno .... I am quite familiar with ' Home Protection Training' ...In short , I give you a big word of CAUTION ... Be very very careful how and what you teach your dog with the decoy ... As Apple referenced , even LE are always at risk of litigation . People with fire arms are at risk, [ In my State in the USA , if someone breaks into your house , and you shoot and kill that person , you could be convicted of 1st degree murder and go to jail for life , if you cannot prove that your life was at risk . People are also being held  to account for what their dogs do too ].


by ValK on 27 June 2019 - 17:06

centurian, so you just confirmed sport purpose of such training with goal in mind to provide safety in exercise for target of attack.
and you're so wrong in so many other aspects.
look, it's no need to wait for dog to pass some point of training, to realize level of aggression and potential in that dog. what training gives us is an ability to see if that aggression can be controlled and steered into desirable direction. if one need to use "targeted bite" to embed in dog a confidence during the fight... well sorry, but that a wrong dog was chosen from start to go. under stress, stronger than encountered in training, that dog will roll back to his innate default, regardless how good he was trained.

for attack dog it doesn't matter dog is pusher, puller.
correctly taught dog will do both, depending on circumstances. just let the dog develop his fight technique in natural way, encouraging rational/efficient elements demonstrated by dog itself. good dog doesn't need artificial imposition but rather guidance to bring to a perfection the stuff he is doing well by itself.
after all goal of any fight is to knock opponent out off psychological balance and impose own rules of fight. frontal attack into face is a perfect tactic for that and that why i said - juno's dog smart one, if he been able to figure out this by itself.

by Centurian on 27 June 2019 - 19:06

Valk ,
Valk , I don't dispute what you wrote ... I feel the same in respects and actually agree with your outlook . Although I do make a slight distinction . I know and I can evaluate that dog , that puppy , even before I start teaching that dog . As a matter of fact I will up your statement one notch : IMOp no one should ever, ever, ever work ANY dog , unless first and foremest that teacher understands well that dog and it's potential .

My distinction : Valk , try to understand that in my comments I try to reach out to many people doing many different disciplines with their dogs . Not all people have dogs with exceptional capabilities and many have dogs just to have fun doing sports. Fortunately or unfortunately , their dogs are benefited with confidence boosts [ as long as we keep in mimd that we cannot make the dog what it is not ] . The Personal Protection dogs , the Police dogs that I had or that I trained, I agree with you : if I had to develop the dog's confidence or capability , then I knew that that dog was not for me, I haver the wrong dog for the use . In that respect I am totally in agreement with you . But , to repeat : people just having a past time in sport with the dog they have , is a whole different scenario .


  If you have read my thread ,I wrote that  I do let 8 week pups bite all over my body ... and for the reasons that you have written . Push /pull in a manner of speaking that is a preference because anyone having gotten bit , by a good bite from a dog , will tell you that push /pull , that great bite hurts / cause a lot of intense pain from either type of bite.. Hurt, that  is an understatement. But maybe , just maybe consider this : If a dog is driving me off my feet , it is much harder for me to do something about that dog . For it becomes a fight  which I can become compromised.   A dog pulling me  , I can more easily reach for my knife , or my Glock and stab/shoot him - or I can deiberatley move right into him and kill him as he is on the bite with my bare hands [some one knows how to do it , of course can too ] ... I may have taken one hell of a bite .. but it would cost that dog's his life if he was pulling me .      

      IMOp , again, an opinion , that would not be so easy for me to do , kill the dog that is , if the dog is driving me backwards with my back bent over or bent sideways . I am totally off balnce as opposed to simply being pulled forward. That is just my take .  [ PS ,off topic : in combat the worst manuever to make is to step back from someone/ your opponent .  The best thing to do is to get into his body space, if you safely can , and  interrupt the movement of your opponent - that is what you do when you likewise move in on a dog that is pulling you . If you go into him,  he loses the upper hand - that is combat fighting ] .  Push/ pull , it may not matter in the different avenues sports , patrol , apprehensions etc etc . Push or pull either way you can achieve a goal.  But if my life depended on the dog - IMOp I would prefer he drive over the guy like a steam roller , prefereably to the ground , where someone can possibly become  more compromised, no matter where the dog is biting . Again , that is an opinion ...Everyone can see thungs a little differently . But I state again , I have no doubt if a dog pulls me , not that I can , I am saying I will kill that dog [ for the record , I purposely will not write on a public forum how I can easily do that  ] 

by K9L1 on 27 June 2019 - 23:06

Centurion. Pushing or pulling bite. As soon as your tissue is punctured there is a high chance that your body will go into shock . So being so confident about killing a dog who is pulling on the bite is not guaranteed.

by ValK on 28 June 2019 - 02:06

K9L

have been bitten many times and can assure you - most unpleasancy of bite isn't from skin puncture but rather from pressure produced by dog's jaws.
adrenaline rush from dog's attack can manifest in extreme chaotic panic or concentrated rational resistance.
all that depends on actual person who's being under attack.

i have posted that video before in regard of different topic but still a good example of human's reaction to live dog's bite.

you can see, there aren't protective gear other than t-shirt. at the end dog was pulled by leash and still hold his grip.
anyway, the driver not fells from pain shock and indeed conduct resistance.
dog was very lucky to deal with such illiterate perpetrator. other way, considering how that dog was taught, that dog already a dead dog.



by Centurian on 28 June 2019 - 12:06

Valk , Good point .... There are variuos components to a bite ...

K9 I can't disagree with what you wrote .... very little in life is guaranteed . I made a distinction between pull vs push- no need to repeat it. I often write that dogs are like [ not meaning the same ] people . I will not write what to do or how . But I will talk about the notion of ' fighting ' . Many people love a dog that fights ... To me that is a wrong idea . My personal preference , for certain endeavors not intended to be sport ,is that I want a dog that literally takes the man out pronto and then if not , to ' perserverence ' to quickly reach the at point ASAP . So the opposite holds : if a dog is msitakenly sent on me to bite me and cause serious harm , then I am not in a situation to fight** that dog. To survive I have to do what I needed to do pronto. Fighting is just that .. fighting. Whether you are confronted by a dog or a human in life , if you want to survive , figurativvely , you have but 10 seconds to do what you need to do and do it quickly. If you plan on fighting a person or a dog , if you don't get killed , you stand the risk of getting seriuosly hurt by fighting . My point- you have to do what needs to be done immediately - that will increase your chance, not guarenteed but freatly puts things in your favor. How can I liken this : if you are in a knife fight, with someone that knows about knife fighting , you may need to take a knife cut, to be able to do what you have to do to win out. So the moment you take the bite , if you cannot compose yourself and immediately , in a blink of an eye , sort to speak , do what you need to do in a second or so , you are a most likely going to be defeated. You cannot putz around and fight*** with the dog or a person, for that matter , and think that you will win out. True K9 , nothing is guaranteed , but you greatly better your chances [ if you know what to do ] .

K9 what I am writing is very very very advanced for the average person to know and do . I compehend this however we afre discussing pusk vs pull and which may be beter . Most people , actually I would tend to bet that most helpers /decoys , do know what to do to save their life , if the dog bites them for real . But I will tell you with certainty , if a dog bites me and I have no weapon .. I can have chance to save my life by neutralizing a dog [ maybe not all breeds , but most dogs ] in 2 seconds although admittingly I would have taken one hell of a bite . Again , I will not say how because I have no idea who will read ' the how' - I have had several people that were up to no good to tell me to train their dogs to bite and to name my price , any price.. I have no idea who is reading the thread ,So I am sorry and I apologize for not fully explaining how to protect yourself when a dog bites .

BTW , nice video Valk ,, that is exactly what I am taking about .. the moment the man was bitten , he fought with the dog hitting the dog on the head. Goodness I've seen some of my friends hit the dog, qwho is biting, over the head with a chair and the dog did not even flinch .. What the man did in the video , I will say , is exactly what not to do ... he tried to fight the dog ...

by apple on 28 June 2019 - 14:06

Valk,
Training that keeps the safety of the decoy in mind is relevant to sport and police dog training. You don't want the dog or decoy injured. Targeting doesn't "embed" confidence in a dog. It allows the dog to become a better fighter. It is about technique. If you had two men of equal strength and courage and one of them is a highly trained martial artists, who do you think will win in a fight. You are teaching the dog skills that make him a better fighter, which has the added advantage of building more confidence. And dogs do need to pass certain milestones in training before they are ready for the next level. If you are assessing a dog as a candidate for police apprehension, you don't start the dog out by taking him into a dark building and have someone kick him in the head. You have to work up to that via training and maturity. At some point, you will test the dog by inflicting some pain in a humane way to test his mettle, but training can't actually fully test a dog for real life without being abusive. The dog has to have the correct genetics to be a good dog because training can never take a dog past his genetic potential, but it can, and is necessary, to bring him to his genetic potential. You say to let the dog develop his fight technique in his natural way. It depends on the dog. Most dogs need a good bit of training to bring them to their highest potential. I suspect you have this philosophy because you are not that knowledgeable about training and are used to working mainly a certain type of dog that is mainly defensive with a low threshold for defense and is sharp and or mistrustful of strangers. Some dogs with those traits are very good dogs, but a lot are also stressed and on the verge of flight.
emoryg

by emoryg on 28 June 2019 - 15:06

Valk, I love your purest style approach to the German Shepherd and always enjoy your perspective.  How ironic that the standard calls for, among other things, a dog who MUST possess instinctive behaviors (not trained), resilience (hardness) and self-assurance (confidence).

Thanks for posting the video and kudos to the K-9 in the video.  Officer safety is the priority for the patrol dog trained in apprehension.  It would have been nice to see the dog counter his grip under pressure (strikes to his head), but that takes nothing from this dog’s value.  It’s just my preference to teach the dog to go deeper and harder when under pressure.   This is best taught as a puppy, but older dogs condition just as well.  The police dog must maintain his position as aggressor to put his opponent into submission behavior.   Next to his physical presence, his grip is one of his most valuable tool in seeking compliance. 

by Centurian on 28 June 2019 - 16:06

To add ...... Many people approach dogs with the mindset that or for the most part they are invincible . Or that they genetically should be invincible , however they are an animal . Flight , Fright Fight .... there is a point where each of these autonomic nervous reactions/behaviors starts and also a point where each of these ceases . So other quaities that are also important : persistance , preserverence , determination and that goes for things other than a dog biting too ] . The grip is onlty as good as . it's speed , it's depth , it's force - However if any or all of those are super , the grip has no value if the dog cannot perservere , is not persistant or determined. Which brings me to emoryg's post-- this is best seen , and nurtured in the dog when it is a puppy too .

So I have question for discussion for us to consider : which is more efficient and proficient for the dog when pushing vs pulling when bitng , considering the need for all the factors that contribute to the dog's bite ? I am interested in all the posters' take/iddeas on this question , as an exchange of ideas , not in the sense of who and what is right or wrong.. Again , not which is better or preferred , but in the notion of whic has more efficiency and proficiency ? My take : My "Impression" is that a dog can push more efficiency and maintain itself longer and perhaps in that sense the bite is more efficient and proficient. I also feel that going into a body conserves a lot more energy for the dog . Pulling requires a hell of a lot more energy and in order to pull effectively the dog is using it's WHOLE body. However , perhaps pulling enchances the dog's grip . Maybe in the reality of all of this , it is a trade off : pushing vs pulilng .. what say you all ?


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