Pulling instead of Pushing Bite - Page 14

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by ValK on 04 August 2019 - 02:08

actually german shepherd dog can take off a strong grown man and i witnessed and to some degree was involved in such case.
friend of my and member of our club got in heated argument, which started fight with two guys. at that moment i was about 100 or so meters away. one guy somehow managed to hit friend's dog to head by shovel (one, used to work with concrete) and effectively for moment knocked dog to the ground. next moment dog got back on feet and attack that guy. about that time i was there and 'till help my friend (he wasn't person with schwartzneger's alike stature) to subdue one guy, dog itself took care of another. when my friend did pull his dog off, the guy was in terrible shape. his head, face, hands, torso was all bleeding mess.
there no way person can withstand such attack if wasn't been able neutralize the dog at beginning.
i know this type of attack and dog's unstoppable rush of rage. even being well protected you still have of that "ants under skin" feeling.

as for " praise a dog's attempt to bite someone in the face " it's not really prize for bite but for smartness.
dog wasn't been taught to do so but was able by itself figure out that advantageous move.
i just love smart, selfsufficient, independent dogs.

to avoid possible troubles - that's what for selection in breeding and training exist.

by Centurian on 04 August 2019 - 12:08

'Take the guy out ' .. my meaning is to neutralize that person such that the owner/ handler is safe . I don't expect dogs to always kill . But the word distraction IMOp falls short. You can throw a rock at someone and that is a disrtaction but that most often won't neutralize a person , prevent that oerson from doing what he/she intended. A protection dog needs to have perserverence and perisitence. yes , if you mean until the officer can take over , then that is a dofferent story . My intention is to clarify that dog is to be more than a distraction. Commone sense : the handler should at all times be in conrtol of the dog , yes ? My objection is not your notion but the way and the words that you use to express it. IMOp I am saying that I want a felon to be more than 'distracted'in a pat down ? .. If that felon even reaches for something hidden that dog is to neutralize that man and action . Also look at this scenario .. A dog bites the perpetrator and the perpetrator hits the dog such that the dog comes off the bite , do you not want the dog to rebite do you not want the dog to re engage ? Of course , you would . You would want that dog to keep fighting , to neutralize that person . Take that person out in a manner of speaking , out of his frame of mind and out of his ability to do harm . In this sense I am trying to say that the dog is more than a so called distraction.
Another way to express this : when we sent the dog to apprehend - that dog was not to keep chasing the felon. It was the dog's job to stop that felon . And Yes , the officer followed behind . But that dog was not a not merely a ' distraction' , for that dog had a job to do : stop , neutralize , guard/hold that man if need be , until the officer took over. That is not a distraction it is a given crucial , important task for the dog to do , that the officer could not do at that moment. He was ' to take that man out " what he was doing and thinking " . That is to say , the dog has more purpose than to be a 'distraction' IMOp . Yes we can all look at something as we choose...

And I like to repeat what Valk stated : " there no way person can withstand such attack if wasn't been able neutralize the dog at beginning.'" ,,,,, fighting , combat , encountering IMOp is not disrtaction . It is an engagement . And if you do not take the opponent ' out , again as matter of speaking ' then your oppenent will , if possible take you out '[ as a matter of speaking]. So I personally have a pet peeve about calling a police dog's duty , a ' distraction'. [ is that not why police K9s wear vests , they stand a risk ? ] . So please do not say , if you will , the dog is a' distraction ' when it performs a task .. You are correct we all are free to do and say as we choose...


by emoryg on 05 August 2019 - 14:08

Valk, I read your post about the dog getting struck by the shovel and going on the offensive.  From my own experience, this level of aggression that is brought on from retaliation can be quite extreme and control of the dog may be hindered by this state of emotion.  Many times I have heard the dogs make a deep growling noise just before this bite.  I was interviewing a suspect and he described the dog making a loud roar before getting bit.  He said it sounded like a lion, so I refer to it as the ‘Lion’s roar’.  I called it a ‘war cry’ for years, but his description was more accurate and I like it better.

Some dogs may also make this noise on initial contact that is not associated with retaliation, but are vocalizing a high state of aggression as the jaws open to bite.  Sounds weird, but it also has a sucking sound to it.   Retaliatory bites are different from defensive bites.  In retaliation the dog is immediately establishing himself as the aggressor.  Trainers sometimes use this to help a police dog who is reluctant to bite without the suspect initiating the action.  The dog receives injury to seek the retaliatory response.  If it is present, then training is moved to have the dog initiate the aggression to prevent his opponent from striking first.  A preemptive action one may say.  The dog should be socialized away from the scenario environment to prevent a train wreck.   For this to be most effective, bite equipment is removed from the equation and the dog is muzzled or physically restrained.  Again, this must be inside the dog for it to take on an effective role in his training.  This is a jump start for the police dog, not a cure all.  If the dog lacks confidence and a desire to dominate, a monster may be created.  In police work it is a great advantage for the police dog to establish his position as aggressor when called upon to bite.  This is where confidence and dominance come together to allow the dog to sustain his aggressive actions despite of how grave the situation may seem.  Confidence is what allows the dog to handle tremendous amounts of pressure, yet go on through life as any other dog would and not be in fear of his own safety and security.  Dominance permits him to assert himself when he is called upon to use his aggression actions, despite those tremendous pressures he may experience.  Sounds easy enough, but it has pestered the breed for a long time. 

Back to retaliation, control of the dog may be hampered due to no defined limits on drive satisfaction.  In other words, submission, flight, or other counter actions from the opponent may not suppress the dog’s desire to continue on with his aggressive acts.  

Breaking bones was mentioned a few pages back.  I don’t have a lot of experience with that (thank goodness), but one of the times it did occur was when the dog took a retaliation bite after being kicked.  This was not a complete fracture, but was diagnosed on xray as a greenstick fracture to the humerus.  The force was not enough to cause a complete break, but enough stress was applied to create a crack in the bone.  I have never seen a complete fracture to the large round bones of the body.

by Centurian on 05 August 2019 - 16:08

Emoryg Nice post :-) .. enjoyed reading that commentary as I bet many others have too . I would like to piggy back on some of your comments. What is important that I keep in mind is that, what you wrote is applicable to several disciplines.

your words : .... this level of aggression that is brought on from retaliation can be quite extreme and control of the dog may be hindered by this state of emotion...

When the autonomic nervous system takes almost completely over the dog , specifically the Fight aspect of the autonomic response of ' fight , fight or fright ' , [ or as some people call it the dog's innate genetic instinct to survive ] there is practically ziltch , nada , no thinking within the dog. When the dog is in this state , could be any endeavor, it becomes quite , almost near** impossible to control the dog with your mouth alone and someties physically , yes ..

Dominance , Confidence .... but I add Courage , that I referenced before , also plays a role. To reiterate : Courage is the dog's ability to undertake physical abuse and sustain the fight , combat and interaction. I write this because as I think about this , you can have the utmost confidence , a high desire to dominate and to control your opponent , but without ' the will to endure and take the physical abuse ' , the other two will not be enough for the dog to win out the day . All three are seperate features but that all go hand in hand.

Last comment - even in sports we utilize what emoryg has described . Yes a Retaliatory bite is different - he is 100% correct . As I have written ad nauseum : a bite is not just a bite . Thanks to emoryg for commenting and to highlighting another dimension of a bite . In sports I have come across dogs with low will to bite . I had to step back and think : " Is this dog ready to be defensed and is this dog ready to handle defense in order to get this dog to bite " . A number of times my answer by talking to the dog , that is to say by getting into the dog's head, and by observing his motivations and behavior, I got the answer 'NO' . So what was I to do ? My solution and answer : With patience I waited until the dog's guard was down and when he turned from me I got him good on his flank . This prevented me from giving him frontal pressure and face to face defense where I did not want him to be . Te result : His response was that upon me invading his hind flank he turned and immediately nastily bit me .. and I let him bite me. That was a " retaliatory bite ' becuase I hurt him [ kindly hurt him on the butt ] and that immediate bite was different than an ordinary bite . You could see his demeanor , intention and motivation was different [ hard to put this into words ]. A couple of repetitions of doing this flanking , that got his suspicious level up and pu high ! This flanking pissed him off - he was ready to work now for when I got near him as emoryg stated : the dog took the intitiative . I did not defense him , I didn't even use pey moves - he just wanted a piece of me - all that In had to do was walk near him . He knew I was serious and he became very serious. That was one of the dogs we worked who went on to do French Ring !!

by ValK on 05 August 2019 - 22:08

emorig, i don't know what to say on your perception and description.
partially i agree but quite sure "retaliation" isn't best word in this case.
i think "retaliation" is what said centurian, linking this word to his example of flanking. dog's action as an impulsive response to irritation with purpose to just punish/drove away irritating factor. in such case "retaliation" term seems fit fine. but not in case when someone do pose threat to dog's life. there only two way out - run or fight. some dog will take run. some dog will perceive this as a challenge and will not stop till kill challenger or be killed.
for me it's damn hard to describe these dogs. they were different but at same time had noticeable similarities among their each own personality. trend to independencies and selfsuficiency, different levels but obvious tendency to dominate human, also different levels but all was responsive to challenge, very susceptible to an arising threat, one person dog ...
anyway, knowing this type of dogs i don't see response of that particular dog as sort of revenge for suffered pain. it was someone, who was dare to challenge him.
b.t.w. that dog at some point sensed danger to handler and stepped in front growling. at exactly that moment guy with shovel hit him.

somewhat similar situation i did have with my first dog, albeit no bites and blood.
about a week, after i was allowed to take that dog to home, we were on the walk when bumped into group of slightly older than me bullies.
during my wrangle with them, he sensed the rise of tension and stepped in front growling. that was enough to end dispute.
i was 10 years and dog was 10 month age at that time. i do vividly remember how proud of my dog i was, although he was rejected one :)


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