Pulling instead of Pushing Bite - Page 13

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by Hired Dog on 02 August 2019 - 16:08

Duke, I agree with you 100%. My gripe is with Valk who cannot seem to find a dog to fit his needs and is always complaining about every single dog posted.
I am certain that were he to contact you about a dog that will suit his needs, you will be able to supply him with one.

by ValK on 03 August 2019 - 02:08

oh c'mon mr.-know-all.
for impartial flow of this topic you found nothing better than complain about mine complain :)

by Hired Dog on 03 August 2019 - 11:08

Valk, I never stated anything about being impartial, I am however curious as to why you have not contacted people who could help you obtain the type of dog you want.
I remember you listed a page worth of breeders a while back, surely one of them could get you the dog of your dreams sir, I know Duke can.
Next, you are not the only one I addressed in my original post, please take another look.
Your complain sir strikes me the most, it has for a while now, because you have something negative to say about every single dog and method of training posted here, yet, I have never seen a single video of the type of training you prefer or of your "dream" dog and I would like to see it, I am being very serious.
So far as my "know it all", I did clearly state what I like and what I would take, however, let me also state for the record, I am not a GSD enthusiast, I am a working dog person, any breed, as long as it can perform the task I require and I have long favored the malinois breed.
Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 03 August 2019 - 12:08

Why would you go through a stranger on the internet?
Btdt. You think you know people because you talk to them daily and it sounds like you agree with each other but qualities in dogs are very subjective.

What you consider as hard may not be the same what I consider as hard. What you consider as drive may not be the same as I consider drive.

I got two dogs through longstanding online friendships. Sent them both back. I also know two local breeders that constantly import dogs from Czech Republic off of this page or through working dog. No, thank you. They go off of pedigrees and 30 second videos. You can make a dog look great with 30 second videos but thats about it.
I will always go through people I actually know and that know first hand what type of dog I like and prefer. And honestly, sometimes you have to wait to find the right dog. Every handler has a personal preference and handles a certain type of dog that suits their abilities and personality.

As for dogs being able to break arms. Absolutely possible.

by Centurian on 03 August 2019 - 13:08

Pushing vs pulling :

Another thought that no one on this thread has yet considered and discussed :

What do dogs do ? They are 90 % nose , and they bite ! That description is foremost in the functional aspects of the dog . Tearing and crushing has been discussed. Step back and think . The GSs have incisor and molar teeth, for a reason . The function of the lower front incisor teeth are for tearing and the function of the molar teeth are for crushing. Was not the dog given teo types of teeth for different functions ? Of course : Form , goes hand in hand with , function.

What I have found is that many people want to put things into absolutes and categories when it comes to dogs. What we should be looking at is the time , place ,context , situation in which nthe dog bites and also should be looking at what is going on in the dog's head [ meaning thoughts , motivaton and feeling that contributes to the dog behaving ] .

One will find that when we take those apsects into condsideration we will conclude that some dogs that pull are very good strong normal dogs and at other times you will find that a dog pulling is truly exhibiting weakness . Similarly you will find that just because a dog bites full on the back molars that dog may also not be as courageous as it seems to be . Hired hand referenced a dog with an officer and he took the position about the bite not meant to take a person out in effect. But then on the other hand , when we did French Ring we prized our dogs on being able to take the decoy down on the first bite [ you automatically kept full point for the exercise]. My personal protection dog that I trained : The point being asd I have so often siad : " much just depends ".

If anyone entered my house I would want that dog, trained in Pers. Protection , to take that person out on and in the firtst bite , [ that is my personal biased take ] . I do not want that dog putzing around pulling pulling pulling , because IMOp the longer an engagement goes on the more likely my dog or potentially I will get hurt. When I was 13 years old one of my street friends [ much older than I was ] got bit by a dog and when the dog was biting , he grabbed the dog , bit the dog back on the head and tore the skin off the dog's head and spit it out. Heavens help you if your dog comes across a dude like that ! To repeat my biased prejudiced position is that I did not want my dog pulling pulling on the intruder like a tug toy . A dog trained to do this is a weapon , if you have a gun you generally shoot someone , you don't take the gun and throw it at someone's head .

So we might say, pushing and pulling may both have their time and place , and in one situation one may be better than the other or maybe not . We can also conclude that the bite alone whether it be pushing or pulling is not enough to be descritptive of the dog and it's character & temperament .

by ValK on 03 August 2019 - 16:08

Hired Dog

1. that was an attempt to help someone's request about breeders, who's base their breeding programs on dogs of former DDR.
and what make you think i do not getting in touch and communication with breeders?

2. if days and needs in old type of GSDs long gone, why would sellers advertise their offers as such type, able to be not only companion but a protector if needs arise?

3. i did have thoughts about. i won't list cons but bottom line is - sadly i do not meet and do not have necessary criteria to become serious breeder.

4. my negative views has place to be, but obviously way too exaggerated by you. i love to see good, outstanding dogs and never would try to diminish their quality. but at same time i will never prize a weak dog just to be polite and compliment the owner.
same approach to training. if dog trained for show performance and stated like that, i'm fine. when dog trained for show but positioned as for real life use, i will call it BS regardless of politcorectness and how someone could perceive my comment.

5. i'm also very sorry to do not have any videos from the past. in the 70's-80's video cameras was something, ones can only dream about. it's main reason why today impossible to find any private old videos about dogs and dog training in former Eastern bloc.
today internet flooded with such video but rarely can be seen something comparable to past or be exemplary. albeit i do share if can and that's not my fault that not really often able to spot worthy stuff.

6. i'm GSD hardcore enthusiast because from own experience know how good this breed is if being selected and bred responsibly for destined goals. and if GSD was outstanding breed in the past, why it can't be such in present? after all those DDR dogs didn't come from out of space but was developed from same base stock as western dogs.

by Hired Dog on 03 August 2019 - 17:08

Valk, I understand the part about the camera, I am also European and we did not have those back in those years as well.
I believe I explained why those dogs are advertised as such, because of marketing and because a few of them do actually qualify for real life work, maybe not to your standards, but, again, they are out there.
The issue with the training and the dogs I mentioned that you are negative towards, is reality sir. I have yet to see you speak positively about a dog or a training session that has been posted in here...wait, I remember now, you did praise a dog's attempt to bite someone in the face once...effective, yes, losing everything you own, including the dog and your freedom after, for sure in today's society.
As far as "outstanding" in the past, you mean for certain segments of working aspects, sure, I agree with you, those were great dogs, but, they are not present today sir because they are no longer needed nor wanted by the majority of the population.
When I said earlier that most people want a social whore, I meant it, look around you.
Anyway, I am no longer going to engage on this particular topic, have a great weekend sir.

by Hired Dog on 03 August 2019 - 18:08

I am familiar with French Ring, however, a dog taking someone off their feet does not equate the person being out. Again, a dog is there to offer a distraction, a chance for the handler, or in this case, the home owner, to grab a gun and deal with the intruder.
If you do have a video of a dog being able to take someone out, as in out cold, I would love to see it.

by Centurian on 03 August 2019 - 20:08

Hired dog ..

There is often a bit of truth in many statements . Yes the person may not be out cold or haven been given a death blow . However consider this : In order to have that person taken off their feet from a dog entering his body space , and onto the ground ** , that dog has to be going forward fast and hard. That also requires a very very hard hit that is accompanied most often with a hard bite. If I do grant to you that sometimes the dog is to distract . However , most of the time in other endeavors , IMOP I do not want the dog to distract but rather I want the dog to encounter , fight and immobilize that man in every sense of the word . I would want that man on his butt and head on the ground , [ ideally that is ] . Although in the real world and street this is not always the case , but at least I would like that to be a goal for a protection dog. A military dog : do you want a military dog simply to distract ? LE is a little different than protection . If my life , that is , being dead or alive , depended on my dog , I want that dog to save my life - my personal bias because I may not have access to my gun. BTW if I carried all the time , years ago I would not need the dog . Also many many people, the average person hits tthier target only 20% of the time and maybe even less of the perpetator is moving. Officers .. do you think that every officer is 100% , 90 % , 80 % accurate every time . [ BTW I know what the accuracy rate is ]. Now don't get my motive wrong . I am not here to argue with you or anyone , but ad nauseum , I want people to think ... BTW I know LE has protocol and rules too . Evern smll ones such as we always gave three warnings while apprehending , before the dog was sent .. So I understand your perspective , what you state what you do , and why quite well .

Hired , don't get me wrong , I am simply stimulating thinking .. Then on the other hand I have trained State Police dogs with officers . The very first time I worked with a rookie K9 officer , I was supposed to do a post pattern running 30 yards away for the dog to apprehend me . I had a tank top , pair of jeans and an arm sleeve. I ran 5 feet away and with my back turned , the officer let the dog go . That dog came up on me so fast and although I saw him out of the corner of my eye , I had no chance to turn around to face him and persesnt the sleeve. Hit bit me on the as""" and took me right down to the ground . That dog would have done some serious damage with me on the ground. If the officer had been 30 yards away when that happened I was in no position to fight that dog . He might have sent me to the hospital for sure . If I was standing and the dog bit me , if you read my previous post , I had a chance to kill that dog with my hands if I choosed to .

If that dog had me standing and perhaps pulling I would have had a chace to be victor. Hired , I am wondering if you understand combat . If you know what you are doing while you are taken to the ground by a person you have a chance . But I tell you , if you are not combat trained and you ever get put to the ground , you will quickly be done in with an experinced person . The last place a person wants to be while fighting , dog or person , unless he has the upper hand , is on the ground !

Another point : We practiced the automatic dispatch of the dog upon the officer pressing his remote button . When that dog was released from the vehicle , that dog was to rescue and to protect that officer from the felon. That dog did not serve as a distraction , for that dog was to do what it needed to do to save that officer's life. Push /pull whatever , that dog was there to secure that officer. Ditto for pat downs . Most people do not know that there is a very very specific way that K9 is positioned and utilized . If that officer did not do what he was supposed to do and a weapon was pulled out by the felon , that dog as you know, was to immediately , without a cue , act. That action again was to neutralize that felon . That dog was not there to be a distraction but again to save that office's life .

My point is that : a dog is used in different ways for different contexts , situations , goals and disciplines [ ie protection , sports , military/border partrol , police duties. What we want from the dog is different in each of those disciplines and the traiing /teaching is different for each for the goal of the dog is different . Not all encounters are the same , not all bites afre the same.

by Hired Dog on 03 August 2019 - 21:08

Centurian, I am very familiar with ground fighting, also called "dog fighting" and I am familiar with what a dog is capable of doing.
I am also very familiar with the accuracy of a police officer with a gun...not impressive at all, but, that is not the point here.
A dog's capabilities are the same, be it police, military or personal protection. Indeed, some dogs will fight harder then others, some will stay in the fight longer, etc, but, at the end of the day, its a dog. The training is different for each of these endeavors, yes!
I know of what kind of damage a good dog can do to a human, under the right conditions, its not pretty.
For me, personally, I know for a fact that a dog serves as a psychological tool, as a pain compliance tool, as a distraction, but, I am a realist and therefore will rely more on my weapon, if I have one available and if not, on me getting a weapon I can use to help my dog, or, in case of a civilian using a personal protection dog, to run away and call the police.
Yes, I have seen dogs hit hard enough, both in the KNPV and the NVBK to seriously knock the wind out of you and get you off your feet and cause a lot of pain, but, I have also seen dying men who with their last breath put a bullet in you or roll a frag and...well, you get the idea.
Anyway, this is getting old, at the end of the day sir, I have always said, "you do you and I do me"

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