by duke1965 on 31 July 2019 - 18:07
@ centurian, that has nothing to do with fair, it is totally wrong assumption, also from you, pulling, versus pushing has absolutely NOTHING to do with courage, nerves or anything else than level of prey,posession and traininglabour,
to say one has seen weak dogs pull, means nothing, I see weak dogs that I can teach to push every month, still nervy crappers that feel safe on the bite
by duke1965 on 31 July 2019 - 20:07
I think it is impossible to catch anything about dogs in graphs, scheduals or generalities, as dogs caracters are buildup from multiple factors and no two dogs are the same
you can absolutely take no measurments from things like a grip,speed on a long bite, or anything else for that matter, and relate that to courage,strength, dominance or agression, as these are unrelated factors
people today put to much weight on trained behaviour and macho talk, and that partially is the reason we are where we are today inlevel of quality in malinois, GSD and everything inbetween, or better the lack thereof
by Centurian on 31 July 2019 - 20:07
"pulling, versus pushing has absolutely NOTHING to do with courage, nerves or anything else than level of prey,posession and traininglabour, "
For the record I wrote that pulling does not always imply a weak or a low stress level temperament dog. However , and this is not an assumption but as a matter of fact : many dogs that bite with the front of their mouth and pull are weak dogs - meaning they have a low stress level. That is to say they love to bite but they cannot handle the combative struggle with a human. That is why they prefer to pull [ if not having been taught to pull ].
How can I liken this : If I were to punch someone , I put my whole body's full wieght behind that punch . I do not simply throw out my arm / hand and wack someone. Just the opposite - for I get in close and I give him through punching , all that I have . So some*** dogs *** [ I am not saying all dogs that bite and pull ] that bite with their front teeth are not giving it their all or else like many other dogs their aim would be to bite with a full mouth to get as much a piece out of you that they could.
But these dogs don't because they are half in and half out of the interaction mentally , emotionally, as well as physically . And to be in the combat , yes that takes courage ,. What is this possession bit ? Many dogs that I have trained , a good numberof them , they could care less about possession - their aim is to go after the man , equipment or no eqiopment. Their goal is to do serious harm to the man . So , what does that have to do with possession ? Is that dog going to posses that man like a kong toy ? In the dog world courage as defined is : The ability to take physical abuse *** and to endure the fight until you are victor. THAT is COURGE and a dog that pulls does not always have that intent or motivation , nor does it have the courage or stress level [ some dogs do hae the stress level and courage , but also , some do not ].
Oh boy... Duke ..... are you baiting me .. If your meaning is that pulling and pushing can be a taught behavior, then I say , that is a different matter and discussion altogether . But nonetheless , many dogs that pull , and that is what BM stated , they are weak dogs [ not all but some are ]. I guess to each their own as to what one wants to believe . However , believing something does not make it , a fact or fiction . Facts are facts and that is that . Some dogs that pull are simply weak , very very weak , and that is that - a fact ...
by duke1965 on 01 August 2019 - 04:08
all cows are animals, but not all animals are cows, same discussion
by BlackMalinois on 01 August 2019 - 11:08
Dutch police select dogs also on grips they like strong pushing grips that is why we in Holland
also practise mostly deep pushing grips the reason is in the real world a strong pushing grip
is much better than a poor pulling grip , with pulling grips the criminal have more change to escape.
because the dog don,t confrontate with the whole body but mostly only with clothes and with pulling grips they mostly only us the front teeth not the whole mouth.
For good pushing grips you need also good decoys we all know a bad dog decoy can destroy a good biting dog. what I say before a genetic poor pulling dog will never be a good push biter.
My observation there is some different between full pedigree malinois,full pedigree GSD and the X
malinois/dutch shepherd, Some of the full FCI malinois have a nerve isue and thats why some of them have not a solid grip and piano biting. FCI GSD I see most of them a calm grip but not much fight and a natural pushing bite is rare too find in the FCI GSD ..have seen some IPO dogs switch to a KNPV suit with jute and leather most of them get pulling they don,t like confrontate with the helper and start pulling the jute from the leather it looks they wanna escape and also make a lot of noise out of frustration!!. The best grips I will find with X malinois /Dutch shepherd most of them have good natural grips with push and fighting, not all of them are superstars have also see some crap over there. the same I can say from the ring sport malinois there is diifferent in bloodlines what have some infuence.The biggest problem today IMO in the sport world there is too much routine doing the same exercises again and again the sleeve is a reward .Real pressure and confrontation and fight with the decoys in different areas is rare too find its only a game all of this have some influence dog breeding
and selection. What I say its only my personal observation for what its worth i respect every other opinion.
by duke1965 on 01 August 2019 - 12:08
you write a strong pushing grip is better than a weak pulling grip,that makes as much sense as saying a strong pulling grip is better than a weak pushing dog,
but ultimately says nothing about pulling versus pushing in general, just shows your bias, thats all
I know one policedepartment that recently purchased a nice pushing KNPV titled male, that wont bite shit when there is no KNPV suit in sight, they want him out now, same (big)department bought a IPO started/KNPV finished pulling malinois that I provided to netherlands, its the best dog they have in the unit(by their words)
each dog is individually different, and quality can not be measured by traininglabour or crazy prey/posession, otherwise every malipup hanging on the rag at 7 weeks of age would be guaranteed to make it as a policedog
by emoryg on 01 August 2019 - 13:08
by BlackMalinois on 01 August 2019 - 13:08
Duke you don,t understand the essential between a pushing bite and pulling bite, grip pushing bite dogs will confrontate more and never loose grip, and a pulling biting dog don,t will confrontate and looks like to will escape... pushing grips is full bite, most pulling grips only use front teeth and looks more weaker pushing bites will bite harder, we need dogs who bite full under heavy pressure in the real world
I have other experience with dogs than you global. Anyway here in Holland police departments also a dog who only
bite for equipment not for real will wash out directly, I have also seen 100,s of dog who are not good enough for KNPV who are now police dogs in the USA , lucky for the KNPV there is a USA market for this kind of dogs, same I have seen for detection dogs with not enough drives who can make it in the US.a certified KNPV dog is not always a good dog in the real world, have seen enough , you don,t need only a KNPV certification to be a police street dog most of them select on green dogs today outside Holland But here in Holland they need PH cerification most of time. the selection is harder here than in the US thats for sure.Only a very high prey driven dog only is not enough here in Holland . when the dog have not enough courage and nerves and drives, so you can,t say every 7 weeks old malinois with enough prey drive will make it as a police dog later.
True every dog is indvidual but some pedigree dogs have other specific properties rottweiler,bouvier,dobermann,Malinois,German Shepherd,X malinois etc the selection in the K9 and police world we most of time see malinois and GSD worldwide.IMO the shepherd dogs are the most all round dogs of them. There is global a different between a FCI malinois and X malinois I see more stronger dogs in X malinois / dutch shepherds , because the selection on that FCI dogs have destroy a lot of good properties from dogs and bloodlines who have never been used.
by duke1965 on 01 August 2019 - 13:08
again you show lack of knowledge, most dogs that pull only use front teeth, what kind of bullshit thinking is that, all ipo dogs need full grip to score points, all have full grip and most of them pull on the bite, by your line of thinking, all weak dogs
now look at Xanuc from grauen star on WUSV, several half bites , you think its a weak dog, really, you need to start to get out a little bit more and start talking to some other people
and for your info, lots of prey only dogs are working at dutch police, there are more factors involved there
first, extreme high prey dogs with easy triggered frustration will see anything as prey so will bite anything, including handlers kneecaps
secondly, there is a HUGE difference between a dog that is trained and shaped for two years or more in KNPV, versus a green dog that will go trough an 8 weeks class with unexperienced handler in USA for example, THAT is a HUGE difference overlooked by most
by BlackMalinois on 01 August 2019 - 13:08
You have your opinion and I have mine I will never went use a pulling biting dog I hate them. I better can some day talk in my own language with you for a discussion maybe than you one day understand what Im saying it will spend me a lot of time ,you have your experience and I have mine
About your Xanuk I can only give a good impression if I work with this dog myself in different situations and also on a KNPV suit and reality bite with good serious pressure many dogs have fallen .Pulling bites tells me someting about a dog
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