Pulling instead of Pushing Bite - Page 10

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by ValK on 16 July 2019 - 20:07

what you said is a detalization of events/occurs/triggers which motivate aggressive behaviour.
in all cases dogs switches to such behavior due to displeasure by those happenings.
but anyway i'm fine with that. it doesn't bother me at all.
personally first i would like to see what trigged an aggression.
if reason satisfactory, second step is to see if dog can turn his mental state into physical confrontation and sustain it even meeting equally aggressive response.
everything else is not a something i would care about. there are plenty of animal behaviorists and book writers for that.

by Centurian on 29 July 2019 - 13:07

As of this posting , I see more than 15370 views on this thread topic ... Pushing /pulling - forms of expressing aggression .

There has been different views about Aggression . So , something to think about :

Are we to call behaviors that are Reactive in origin and nature , the same quality wise [ i.e. , in Kind ] , as those behaviors that are Proactive in origin and nature ? Think in these terms .

A Bark : even though a dog barks in many situations we know , that bark means different things . In that sense, the bark in one situation is not to be construed to the mean to be the same message the dog is sending in another different situation . Yes we use the same word "bark'. But that bark is different in different contexts /situations. We use the word in a genereal sense but we know that in the specific sense that each bark is different in the meaning and purpose that it conveys.

So , in that sense , liken the word ' Aggression ' the same way . We use a general term , ' Aggression' , and apply that to specific cicumstances . That leads IMOp to much confusion and to preventing the full comprehension and understanding as to 'what exactly is going on in the dog '. Not all barks are the same , nor is all aggression the same. Does anyone really think Proactive Aggression and Reactive Agression are alike ? Just by describing them differently , just by terming them differently that means they are different. Maybe the different labelling occurs , is because they are in truth different ? To repeat , a dog barking for a cookie is not the same as a dog barking at an intruder in your house . There are different origins internally as well as externally for different kinds of aggression ... And maybe that makes the aggression in the specific sense of the word and the specific situation / context , different also from situation to situation ..... maybe ?

by xPyrotechnic on 29 July 2019 - 20:07

At this point i am lost too much info to take in, how do we teach this pushing bite to a dog or pup and also what reaction should you want to see in a dog who could become a successful LE dog when provoked by the first time by a decoy?

by duke1965 on 30 July 2019 - 09:07

first of all, there is no connection between a pushing bite and being suitable for LE, for pushing bite you need higher prey/posessive dog, for LE there are more qualities needet than that alone

mental and environmental stability is a first , tested a pedigree malinois few days ago that had everything to get a strong, pushing grip, but when pressured was a nervebag, still kept his grip, but no street material at all, see if he stays on the bite on slick and moving undergrounds

loud noises, open stairs, slippery floors running dieselengines, trainstations etc

Dog should have decent level of civil agression, willing or be able to light up without prey triggers(any equipment) visible

dont know age of pup, but when provoked first time I want to see forward reaction to begin with, but depends what is type and level of provocation, a good helper is worth a million bucks in raising a pup




by BlackMalinois on 30 July 2019 - 10:07

My experience is most weak dogs have pulling grips I see alot( GSD )today with weak pulling grips .Most strong  dogs have pushing grips with fight ..Strong genetic grip x world class decoy is BINGO can make dog more stronger and stay under control with pressure!!! .Weak genetic  grips will never get strong pushing grips any decoy you will get... in the end of the day the dog will loose grip under pressure .Here a 12 weeks old X Dutch shepherd female and world class decoy Klaas Evers this female now is certified in KNPV and have proven great offspring allready.





by emoryg on 30 July 2019 - 16:07

As Duke said, has nothing to do with how a dog bites for law enforcement.  Be cautioned that some overly possessive prey dogs who excel as a suit slayer with their pushing grip on the field, may not be so useful for LE when he won’t out the clothing article he just tore off and go focus back on the suspect. 

Nothing like running as a backup officer and watching the handler’s dog remove a perp’s shoe and be taking out of the game cause he wont release it and go back on the suspect.  Makes it worse when the guys laying there and you can see the pistol sticking out of his waistband.   Fortunately that thug (car jacker) kept his hands up until he could be cuffed and disarmed.  

These dogs may also encounter troubles on the field when there is a change of venue, or helper who now becomes decoy (there should be a difference).  Their grips can suffer and they revert to thrashing like a shark.  They work best on their own turf and have their own suit to slay.  If they should grab a bite in a place they are not comfortable with, they will abandoned the grip and find the part of the suit that makes them more comfortable.  Sometime they may even pass on biting a closer body part and look for the bite fold (pacifier) in the suit.  Old habits are hard to break for all of us, even dogs.  Mother Nature always has the last word.

Spend your time finding the right dog, not on building a dog’s confidence on a bite.  In real work, we want to teach the release, not the bite. 

by duke1965 on 30 July 2019 - 16:07

@ BM your experience is not so much experience, as you write nonsense again

by Gustav on 30 July 2019 - 19:07

Duke is right...mental and environmental strength/stability are far more important these days than whether a dog has a pushing/pulling bite....at least for LE work.
Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 31 July 2019 - 10:07

Absolutely, it doesn't matter what you do, environmental stability is everything. Without stability you have nothing. Not even a good pet dog. Personally, I will put stability and nerve before everything else. Thats one thing I will never compromise on.

by Centurian on 31 July 2019 - 14:07

Duke ... now , now Duke .... that was entirely unfair and insulting to have written that to BM . With fairness in mind and with courtesy to you Duke , you know , at least you should know , that even though sound and mentally normal/ strong dogs can and do pull , that also many many many dogs that are deficient in stress levels [ i.e. nerves ] simlarily do pull as a expression of that faulty , inadequate , stress level required to do that task of biting and engaging a person .

BM made a point - he did not say all dogs that pull are inadequate in stess levels [ nerve ] but that he had seen many . Sport, LE makes no different because I have seen , and also , I am assuming that , you have seen enough of them too . And yes ,you can bet also that some dogs that were tried and tested for LE as well as Sport , that demonstrated the lack of capability or stress level or those avenues due to their inability to handle the stress .

The thread was about pushing /pullingwhile biting . The thought of an unsound dog or a dog without adequate temperament : Of course , we all aim having GS that work that are sound and up for the task , temperament wise - That is just a given in any serious endeavor. And the reason the aspect of temperament , stress level /soundness [ nerves] enters the conversation is because BM is correct in his point that many dogs that pull , not all but enough as a percentage , indeed do pull because they have insufficinet nerve- The reverse of the statement : because a dog pulls does not imply that dog has inadequate stress levels - many that pull have great temperament with very very good stress levels. Much is not absolute in the dog world. The experienced people , those that comprehend what they are talking about cannot refute this ... So Duke that was not fair to BM ..

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