RIP REAL workingdogs- bloodlines with charactar ? - Page 8

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by GK1 on 12 March 2019 - 01:03

Oh I got it the 1st time Valk. The article is written quite clearly. I knew those dogs were special. Thanks for posting.

by apple on 12 March 2019 - 11:03

There were DDR show lines as well.


by emoryg on 12 March 2019 - 15:03

Juno, It sounds like you stayed on top of the game with your guy.  No experience with electricity on dogs, other than what I have observed.  I have no idea about your dog’s sibling, but just hearing you say he was passed on from handler to handler is the biggest red flag of all, and why he would be gifted to a rookie handler is a bit disconcerting.  It would be interesting to find out about the early stages of this dog’s life. 

It is possible to identify some of the dominate traits early on.  One of the more obvious being the little pup who may not want to be held on his back or held at all (desire not to be dominated).   Does this mean when he gets older he will start climbing the leash faster than a squirrel up a tree?  Of course not.  Dominance has various intensities with some of the pups never showing any signs of it towards the handler as adults.   But I have seen young pups (I worked with one) who made clear and convincing signs that they expected you to bow down (desire to dominate).   In addition to not wanting to be held down, this puppy also took liberty to stand over you every chance he got.  Not just people, but adult dogs as well.  He never had the submissive tail wagging, squeamish body language.  It was tail up, hair down forwardness that quickly led to trying to get his paws up on the adult dog’s shoulders.  Cute to see, but just one of the precursors that something was in the air.  Early on he expected you to walk around him and was quick to make unsolicited prolonged eye contact, but as if he was sizing you up.  Mounting behaviors (only towards men) was occasionally observed throughout his life and could escalate into violence if challenged.  I recall one handler I worked with making humor of this at the dog’s funeral.  Early on I had to stay on top of these things.  Redirecting and ignoring the behaviors had some benefit, less so as he matured.  As the levels of dominance escalated he sought submission at the physical level, at which time I resorted to punishing it.  It eventually led to one of those ‘come to jesus’ sessions I mentioned.  Regrettably it was the day before we went for our BH routine during my less than successful attempt to make him a sport dog.  That day his performance lacked much of the spirit he was known for, but a few days later he seemed to have buried the hatchet and was back to his happy self, and fortunately the days of fighting for dominance was behind us, for the most part.  Occasionally he did show signs that he was ready to move his head to the top of the totem pole, but I was quick to intervene and he never acted upon them. 

Later on as a police dog he was a pleasure to work.  Total self confidence, hard, good defense, good prey, tireless worker, gifted nose and being very smart were some of his qualities.  The dog had zero fear and was no doubt, as time and time again he proved it, the worst nightmare to some of society’s most dangerous criminals.  He loved children, loved woman, tolerated most men and could be approached in public.  He served as a k-9 ambassador to the public for many years, conducting dozens and dozens of demonstrations.  Having said that, could a new handler grab his leash and try to force him to sit?  Only once.  If they took time to develop a strong bond would he work for them?  Absolutely.  Could an inexperienced handler using electricity get injured?  I would like to think not, but it was what it was and no fault of the dog.

Valk, very good points on aggression as it relates to dominance.  Yes, one bad thing about only hearing about a dog, is it leaves more questions than answers.  I would maybe right a book on my experience working with dogs, but never a book on training.  I feel there are just too many variables that a good training book could never properly address. 

Apple, In the early 90’s I trained a little DDR female who I believe sire’s side was known more for the show lines, but I will yield to those who know more about that bloodline.  I raised her from a puppy.  A bit on the sensitive side, but that seemed to get better as she aged.  Never thought she would do much in bitework.  Showed good interest and had a really nice grip but never seemed to fire on all cylinders.   Then one day, Im guessing she was around two, I took her to the club just to get her out of the house and she was a different girl.  I think she even received high protection score in our Sch 1 routine.  I believe sometime back in the 80s, Ed Frawley filmed an actual Sieger show in the DDR.

Littermate to this dog

by apple on 12 March 2019 - 16:03

Gustav would know for sure, but it looks like most, if not all of the dogs in that pedigree are working lines.

by emoryg on 12 March 2019 - 17:03

Here is a short video of her early on learning bitework.  I may still have the video of her Sch 1 routine.  If I can find it and get it to play in the VCR, I will try to make a digital copy.

by ValK on 12 March 2019 - 17:03

i'm not an expert on pedigree and lines but looking at pedigree, i can't see anything from show blood there.
on both sides she's descendant of Pushkass v haus Himpel. that closest, important enough to be founder of XIA bloodline in DDR, dog.
don't thing in DDR they did base their lines on show performance.

p.s. who's the guy with sleeve? is that her owner?
other way definitely lack of aggressiveness but at least absence of hyper excitement as well.

by Juno on 12 March 2019 - 18:03

Emoryg, don’t know anything about my dog’s siblings early life. All I know is my dog and when we first got him as a 8 week old puppy he did not like being held, but that might be a bonding issue. He did charge some workmen barking a deep bark as an 8 week old less than 24 hours he flew in all the way to South Florida from Washington state. I still remember that day as my wife just looked at each other with our jaws open and the workmen (they were 2 of them) told us thank God he is little, you better get this one under control. He also fought off 2 older dogs who had gotten loose as a 6 month old puppy when they attacked my wife, our other dog a femal who was about 8 months old during the time of the incident. He definitely is a very aloof dog to strangers but can be approached depending on how it is done and who it is. He has no issues with kids and women for some reason but has a tendency to size men up. Very safe in public. Never really challenged or challenged me except when we first start playing fetch with a ball he is very reluctant to give it up and needs a mild correction now (used to be a lot tougher when we first started) before he falls in the routine and enjoys playing fetch. With me he is definitely NOT dominant and super bonded to both my wife and I to the point he is a shadow. Definitely not the type Valk or BM is describing the type of dog they are used to, but he has already proved several times he has our back and to me that’s what matters.

by emoryg on 12 March 2019 - 18:03

Valk, I am the handler and the helper is a man named Baldur Kranz.  He owned that bitch’s, grandsire Lord v Gliesdrieck (nice dog).  She didn’t show aggression until later and I had all but given up on her because of it.    

Here is a video of the k-9 handler making fun of my dog’s mounting behavior at the funeral.  A little laughter goes a long way on a sad occasion.

Here we are doing the BH routine when he was a younger dog.  The judge was an old German named Hans Knorth.  He was a wealth of information, but did not speak the best English.  If I understood him correctly, he was schooled under Stephanitz.  I was a firefighter back then and he referred to me all the time as that in German.  But I forgot what it was he called me!

by apple on 12 March 2019 - 18:03

It is probably more accurate to say that the early DDR dogs rarely participated in schutzhund when it was a breed worthiness test rather than a sport, so there was no standard way to assess working ability. And in the DDR, there were Seigers and Seigerins (champions) but they were different than the West German Seigers and Seigerins, who over time, became selected much more based on appearance than working ability resulting in a loss of genetics that led to the weaker West German show lines.

by Juno on 12 March 2019 - 18:03

There is actually a video of Baldur working Lord. I believe it was recorded off a TV

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