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by Jessejones on 06 March 2019 - 20:03

True to a certain extent...
....yes, SchH is, also to me, all about obedience and is a ballet of movement. And you need the precision for points. The point system is not a good system and creates robots, IMO. The smallest silly nuance will make or break high points. And some things that are being done don’t make a lot of sense to me, like the automated learned rhythm of hold and bark...and head-cranked heeling. Pretty useless in real life. I wish that head crank prancing trend would change again. Add: I like a heeling dog that is aware of his surroundings and has one ear cocked to me waiting for a cue...not his whole head under my armpit.
But there are many breeders that don’t only breed for SchH...and only from the dog sire of the month flavor. Like Duke said, know where to look.

by ValK on 06 March 2019 - 20:03

nowadays trainer might be super in the field of sport pursuance but never experienced work with type of dogs, which wasn't been bred for sport.
with dominant type foremost important thing is an establishing subordination rank and only after one can proceed to training.
and please spare me BS about cons of dominant dogs in work. if such thingy happens, then look at handler, who did fail to establish hierarchy and not at dog, who just act as his nature dictate to him.

Jessie why do you always fall into extreme assessment? old crank and yank, including kicks and punches isn't best way to teach the dog but believe me, with some dogs at least in the past, one wasn't able to avoid this.
would love to see how you with clicker, toy or food could change the mind of dog, who in violent manner tries to change roles in team :)


by Jessejones on 06 March 2019 - 21:03

Au contraire...
It is the anti reinforcement people...the one ones that use the term
‘Cookies and clickers’, and there are a few on this site, in a scoffing tone that are the ones extreme in assessment. I always say there are many roads to take.

Firstly, it depends on your relationship with the dog. Is this your dog from puppyhood? Or, an adult dog that someone else trained.

If its my dog from a puppy, he will know the rules from the beginning. The first day with me. Which is: He doesnt play right, he doesnt get what he wants. Believe me, every dog learns this quickly. With some, you may get the rebellion in adolescence, but still...he knows the rules and you must stay the course. He and you will usually get through it. Just remain fair so the dog can always trust your reaction and will know what he will get if he complies. Later in adult is so in their DNA, so conditioned, that there will not be a lot of problems and he works with you, looking for your need for further reinforcement....unless you want to freshen a behavior up again.

If one is working with an older dog for the first time. Use the exact same procedure. It might take him longer to figure out the rules, but he will. If he tries to bite or wrestle control, out comes the prong and muzzle...and the use of the crate, and withholding of food until compliance. It’s the dogs decision.

I fully realize there are many tools, and I use them all, not only food and a clicker (BTW, I dont use a clicker at all, only my voice).

But having people say clickers and cookies are bad (or markers and reinforcement - same thing) is just...well, ignorance in this particular use of the teaching process.


Add: Note that I wrote “ignorance of use of this teaching process...” NOT that the people are ignorant! But we’ve had this discussion a few times already in past posts....So I will leave it at this.

by ValK on 07 March 2019 - 02:03

Jesse it doesn't matter how young and small was the pup, when you acquired him. if dog has dominant gut in him, he will challenge you at some point, regardless of previous handling. that's just their nature.
in fact with adult, experienced dog, transition process goes more smoothly. it may take longer than with average dog but with correct approach, physical confrontation can be avoided.
most what i like in strong dominant dog it's very high confidence, paired with independence and smartness/intelligence.
it's challenging. such qualities demand from handler to be on matching level. other way failure would be assured.

by duke1965 on 07 March 2019 - 06:03

it is big misunderstanding that a strong and couragious, and even civil dog, has to be handler hard or even handler aggressive, that is absolute incorrect

furthermore, using modern terms,systems, clicker etc, doesnot make anybody a better or smarter trainer, you are just as dumb, or smart as you where before you started using itWink Smile

by apple on 07 March 2019 - 12:03

There are trainers that are very good at training dogs for both sport and real work. It is not rocket science, but there is some science to it. It is a matter of the goals, focus and behaviors taught being somewhat different. And I would say the majority of police dogs are not truly dominant dog and the majority of dogs in general are not truly dominant dogs. Regarding food changing the mind of a very dominant, forwardly aggressive dog, I know a breeder who imported such as DS and had to withhold food for twelve days before the dog would let him in his kennel. So the use of food works in both directions and can effect the behavior of a highly dominant dog and his relationship with his handler.
IMO, it does matter what age a handler acquires a highly dominant dog. A puppy challenging his handler is much more manageable than an adult, especially one who has had several handlers due to handler aggression and has learned he can subordinate the handler. I don't know that there is any evidence that that dominance has any correlation with intelligence. "Don't bite the hand that feeds you." Some independence can be good, but too much interferes with the dog and handler working as a team.
I don't think anyone has said a strong, courageous or civil dog has to be handler hard or handler aggressive. The opposite has been said. I also think if someone does not know some of the more modern training systems/terms, for example, nondirected learning, based largely on operant learning principles, it does make them a less effective trainer.

by Gustav on 07 March 2019 - 13:03

Apple, your last post on page two is accurate in spite of many folks hating to admit it.
Also, to everyone.....why does something have to be one way or another...that indicates limited thinking and in turn limited knowledge of dogs and training.
We Have weakened some traits in the breed,( generally), and we have strengthened some traits in the breed, generally), especially in the specialty lines.
Trust me in the 70s, in military with over 200 GS, we had no predisposed Malinois type drive GS ....nor did I see them anywhere else at that I often see this type Dog especially among them breeding for competition.
I’m not judging good/bad, or right/wrong, but to believe the breed hasn’t morphed into some directions and lost some things in other directions is just plain denial or lack of exposure.

by Gustav on 07 March 2019 - 13:03

One last thing, in LE world most police departments and trainers/handlers would rather have a German Shepherd than any other breed. Trust ME!
BUT, when circumstances can be life or death, or the serious of drugs/explosives being so important....there is a reason the number three most popular dog in the world has lost preeminence to the Malinois....and you can spin it any way you want but the reality is the capability of the breed has declined.


by admirable on 07 March 2019 - 14:03

This is up to breeders decide which dogs to breed.

Right dogs into right owners hands with right training methods is most important and would solve all the problems.

I would never change any of my strong dogs as they are actually the most loyal and would give their life in order to save mine...
An image

by ValK on 07 March 2019 - 15:03

apple, i remember from my teenage years my old mentor used to say:

there are dogs, who will bite if commanded to do so
there are dogs, who will not bite, only when commanded to not bite
and there are dogs who will bite, regardless what they were commanded.

aggressive reactivness is not necessarily sign of dominant nature of dog. it's rather sign of personality/character of particular dog.
border breeding did produce plenty of such. at least majority of youngsters, who did fail and was left to us for re-homing, was this type highly reactive dogs. they usually gladly been taken by security departments for watchdogs purpose at plants, factories and warehouses.

yeap! and they breed what is not risky for their business and commercial success.

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