by apple on 10 January 2019 - 17:01
by ValK on 12 January 2019 - 03:01
you seems can't grasp my point.
yes, there are differences between wild and domestic canines but due to same roots there are way too many similarities to be ignored. after all, prey drive did derives from hunt instinct. just in majority of domesticated canines real hunt was replaced by sublimation. does it means that such dog's urge, particularly in not hunting breed, for sublimated hunt should be droven to edge of absurdity?
look this video and dog's reaction to ball. other way seems not a bad dog is falling into hysterical condition seeing that freaking ball. and that 2 y.o. dog, mostly WL with some Czech in it, who in accord to experience of internet gurus do mature much earlier than former DDR dogs.
by apple on 14 January 2019 - 12:01
by Gustav on 14 January 2019 - 13:01
by apple on 14 January 2019 - 13:01
by Jessejones on 14 January 2019 - 18:01
Are you thinking this dogs ball drive is too extreme, in the vid you posted?
Don’t see any problems with this young dog and his ball drive. Looks good.
He seems almost moderate to me, not extreme at all. I think the owner/trainer simply did not teach him the aus (yet)....for whatever his reason is. Which is why the choke-out. Which I personally hate to see handlers use, no matter what their reasons.
The prey drive for inanimate objects can be taught or brought out more ...either on purpose or by accident....after charging the inanimate object first....giving it meaning to the dog. It does depend on if the pup intrinsically has a certain measure of prey and temperament-each dog is different. But the craziness we see in some dogs is, more often than not, trained. IMO.
A lot of folks teach this over the top prey....often by accident, and then are bummed (or happy) that the dog reacts like a crazed ball moron 24/7. All depends on what, and how, you taught the dog.
The reason one did not see it as much 20 years and more ago, or I’m assuming, in the military dogs that you personally like (I am assuming here...) and were used to in the former east or Poland...is because training was based more on discipline rather than rewards. So the ball/prey drive was not ratcheted up as high, or at all.
👍 some very good posts from you here.
by apple on 14 January 2019 - 18:01
by ValK on 15 January 2019 - 15:01
we all have own experience and knowledge, through which we do see things. you're both saw the dog with desirable level of prey drive. i saw the dog, who become so much excited by seeing that ball, that start to lose selfcontrol and sort of mentally falling into puppyhood, clearly demonstrating this by behavior and cheeping vocal expression. mind you, it's 2 y.o. dog (at 1/4 of his active lifespan).
yes, for me that negative enoug factor, to dismiss that dog.
Jessie, even trained behavior need to have innate basic predisposition... to become trained.
apple, i won't discuss "bunny as a prey target". as i mentioned previously - GSD is not a hunting breed and never was. foremost this breed was established as guarding breed, to watch after and protect livestock, not to hunt it.
over century their purpose was expanded somewhat but never into role of hunt-dogs. training GSDs to perform protection through the prey drive (hunt instinct), was perhaps most stupid (and contradictory to protection purpose) move.
by apple on 15 January 2019 - 16:01
I didn't see any loss of self control or the dog mentally falling into puppyhood. I don't even know what you mean by that or how you could objectively come to that conclusion. I did see some handler error with the handler choking the dog off the ball when there was a much less conflictual way of getting the dog to out the ball.
Portuguese Water Dogs were bred to herd fish into nets, retrieve lost tackle, and send messages between ships and shore. Technology replaced them. There is no need for GSDs to herd anymore, so the breed founder promoted them as police and military dogs. As modern police dogs, there is strong need to hunt the bad guy. And training GSDs protection through prey drive is only one aspect of training. They need to be training in defense drive in order to learn to fight. There is nothing stupid about utilizing prey drive and it is an adjunct to training man work, not contrary to it. The only problem I see is when breedings are selected for too much prey drive in the breed and not enough other traits in a dog's drive package, such as defensive aggression, fighting instincts, hunt drive (just because a dog has good prey drive does not mean the dog has good hunt drive,) strong nerves, courage, etc. You are oversimplifying the issue and are stuck in a nostalgic view of the breed that no longer exists. Social aggression has largely been bred out of the breed. Most police departments want confident, social dogs, not mistrustful dogs. The dominant, low prey DDR dogs of the past are all but gone. And IMO, the majority of DDR dogs were not that good. If so, why did most of them disappear after the wall came down? Werner Schulz, who was a German soldier and had experience with many of the DDR GSDs at the wall wrote that only about five dogs were used for biting and the rest were not so good and used for tracking refugees, so tracking/hunting was an important part of this old style dog. Ironically, Valk means Falcon in Dutch, which is a bird of prey.
by duke1965 on 15 January 2019 - 17:01
some good points apple,
about czech and DDR dogs late maturing, its not all about working in defence or not, this is one of the females I bred, old czech lines, didnot pick up a bal or rag till about 11 months of age
furthermore funny, apple that you know about portugese waterdogs, I have them as our second breed for long time, actually introduced them in western europe long time ago LOL