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by apple on 10 January 2019 - 17:01

It is meaningless to compare wild canines to domesticated dogs breed selectively bred for certain functions. Wild canines don't trust people as a means of survival, so you would never be able to test their prey drive for an inanimate object. Dogs need a different kind of prey drive. The end goal of prey drive in wild canines is to chase, possess and then eat the prey. Breeding by people has manipulated that type of prey drive. Prey drive itself will generally not motivate an untrained dog to bite a person for real in a serious manner. There are exceptions. Dogs are socialized and view people as their own kind. Think pack drive with humans being an adopted family member. As a result, stable, socialized dogs will tend to have strong inhibitions to follow through the end goal of prey with people because the end goal is consumption and dogs are not cannibalistic under normal circumstances. So dogs need a type of prey drive that is easily triggered and not necessarily by a food prey object. Dogs that are possessive of toys (possessiveness being part of prey drive) is a good trait because it gives additional training options. Also, think about guarding of prey and dogs that are possessive of equipment such as a sleeve. That trait is useful in training defense of prey. So I think you are very mistaken in thinking prey drive toward "thingies" is useless, irrational and should be selected against in breeding. Just because a dog has high prey drive for inanimate objects does not mean the dog is lacking in other forms of aggression.

by ValK on 12 January 2019 - 03:01

you seems can't grasp my point.
yes, there are differences between wild and domestic canines but due to same roots there are way too many similarities to be ignored. after all, prey drive did derives from hunt instinct. just in majority of domesticated canines real hunt was replaced by sublimation. does it means that such dog's urge, particularly in not hunting breed, for sublimated hunt should be droven to edge of absurdity?
look this video and dog's reaction to ball. other way seems not a bad dog is falling into hysterical condition seeing that freaking ball. and that 2 y.o. dog, mostly WL with some Czech in it, who in accord to experience of internet gurus do mature much earlier than former DDR dogs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeGuSGTJHF8&feature=youtu.be


by apple on 14 January 2019 - 12:01

I don't see any hysterical behavior in the dog on the video and have seen very good dogs with higher prey drive. I would make the point that there are distinct differences in wild canines and domesticated dogs selectively bred for jobs like police work, that can't be ignored. Would you feel better about the dog if his handlers used a bunny tied to a string? How would you test a dog's hunt drive with a prey animal that is alive? A person could be used, but that would imprint the dog hunting only for a person. What if the dog needs to hunt for a gun or drugs or money? The only thing I see is some poor handling where the handler creates conflict by choking the dog off the ball. All he has to do is have another ball and tell the dog to out and reward him with the other ball. All I can figure is that your preference is for low drive, high dominance, old style DDR dogs. Since those dogs are so rare and really don't meet the needs of modern day police departments, there is no demand for them. Some people just don't know how to train a dog like this with a ball on a string. At some point, you have to teach the dog some focus and attention and to cap his drive. As for DDR dogs maturing later, I don't buy that. I just think they tend to have low prey drive so you have to wait for them to mature and then work them in defense, which can cause issues as well. I'm not saying all GSDs whose primary drive is defense are bad, but it can negatively impact training by not being able to teach the dog fundamentals of bite work, due to the stress related to defense. It is analogous to throwing a young kid into the boxing ring without having taught him how to use his hands or move his feet.

by Gustav on 14 January 2019 - 13:01

If they have low prey drive WHICH causes them to mature later( as was stated) , THEN they are or do mature later!!!🤷‍♀️

by apple on 14 January 2019 - 13:01

All dogs mature more as they get older, so you could say all dogs mature later. My point was if the dog has low prey drive, there is not much to work with in terms of bite work at an early age, so you have to wait until the dog has more maturity to handle the stress of working the dog in defense. In that case, the dog is not maturing at a slower rate, but rather, you have to wait for the dog to mature enough form his defense drive and his ability to handle the stress of defense to develop Some dogs' prey drive doesn't kick in until they are eight months or older and then they can have very good prey drive. That is what I would consider as a dog that matures later in terms of prey drive.
Jessejones

by Jessejones on 14 January 2019 - 18:01

Valk-
Are you thinking this dogs ball drive is too extreme, in the vid you posted?

Don’t see any problems with this young dog and his ball drive. Looks good.
He seems almost moderate to me, not extreme at all. I think the owner/trainer simply did not teach him the aus (yet)....for whatever his reason is. Which is why the choke-out. Which I personally hate to see handlers use, no matter what their reasons.

The prey drive for inanimate objects can be taught or brought out more ...either on purpose or by accident....after charging the inanimate object first....giving it meaning to the dog. It does depend on if the pup intrinsically has a certain measure of prey and temperament-each dog is different. But the craziness we see in some dogs is, more often than not, trained. IMO.

A lot of folks teach this over the top prey....often by accident, and then are bummed (or happy) that the dog reacts like a crazed ball moron 24/7. All depends on what, and how, you taught the dog.

The reason one did not see it as much 20 years and more ago, or I’m assuming, in the military dogs that you personally like (I am assuming here...) and were used to in the former east or Poland...is because training was based more on discipline rather than rewards. So the ball/prey  drive was not ratcheted up as high, or at all.

Apple-
👍 some very good posts from you here.

by apple on 14 January 2019 - 18:01

I would much rather have a dog with very good prey drive. That does not mean you have to use it for everything you train. When a dog is in too high of drive, he can't think, attend/learn as well. SO I start with food to teach behaviors and later go to the toy to bring out more drive. Food also allows you to reinforce continuously. My current dog has very good prey drive. I can just tie him out and show him the ball and he intensely comes into drive. In the bite work, the decoy has used little to no prey movements and the dog comes into drive as soon as he sees him. Same for the whip in bite work. I would rather see it used to bring out drive in obedience. It is used so much in IPO because the dog needs to bark so much in the B&H, which tells you something about a dog, but is also pretty much useless IMO. The result is you get a lot of dogs that light up easily, but that doesn't always translate into fighting a man.

by ValK on 15 January 2019 - 15:01

we all have own experience and knowledge, through which we do see things. you're both saw the dog with desirable level of prey drive. i saw the dog, who become so much excited by seeing that ball, that start to lose selfcontrol and sort of mentally falling into puppyhood, clearly demonstrating this by behavior and cheeping vocal expression. mind you, it's 2 y.o. dog (at 1/4 of his active lifespan).
yes, for me that negative enoug factor, to dismiss that dog.

Jessie, even trained behavior need to have innate basic predisposition... to become trained.

apple, i won't discuss "bunny as a prey target". as i mentioned previously - GSD is not a hunting breed and never was. foremost this breed was established as guarding breed, to watch after and protect livestock, not to hunt it.
over century their purpose was expanded somewhat but never into role of hunt-dogs. training GSDs to perform protection through the prey drive (hunt instinct), was perhaps most stupid (and contradictory to protection purpose) move.


by apple on 15 January 2019 - 16:01

I didn't see any loss of self control or the dog mentally falling into puppyhood. I don't even know what you mean by that or how you could objectively come to that conclusion. I did see some handler error with the handler choking the dog off the ball when there was a much less conflictual way of getting the dog to out the ball.
Portuguese Water Dogs were bred to herd fish into nets, retrieve lost tackle, and send messages between ships and shore. Technology replaced them. There is no need for GSDs to herd anymore, so the breed founder promoted them as police and military dogs. As modern police dogs, there is strong need to hunt the bad guy. And training GSDs protection through prey drive is only one aspect of training. They need to be training in defense drive in order to learn to fight. There is nothing stupid about utilizing prey drive and it is an adjunct to training man work, not contrary to it. The only problem I see is when breedings are selected for too much prey drive in the breed and not enough other traits in a dog's drive package, such as defensive aggression, fighting instincts, hunt drive (just because a dog has good prey drive does not mean the dog has good hunt drive,) strong nerves, courage, etc. You are oversimplifying the issue and are stuck in a nostalgic view of the breed that no longer exists. Social aggression has largely been bred out of the breed. Most police departments want confident, social dogs, not mistrustful dogs. The dominant, low prey DDR dogs of the past are all but gone. And IMO, the majority of DDR dogs were not that good. If so, why did most of them disappear after the wall came down?  Werner Schulz, who was a German soldier and had experience with many of the DDR GSDs at the wall wrote that only about five dogs were used for biting and the rest were not so good and used for tracking refugees, so tracking/hunting was an important part of this old style dog. Ironically, Valk means Falcon in Dutch, which is a bird of prey.

by duke1965 on 15 January 2019 - 17:01

some good points apple,

about czech and DDR dogs late maturing, its not all about working in defence or not, this is one of the females I bred, old czech lines, didnot pick up a bal or rag till about 11 months of age

https://youtu.be/7c56ONQpT40

 

furthermore funny, apple that you know about portugese waterdogs, I have them as our second breed for long time, actually introduced them in western europe long time ago LOL



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