I think treat training is cruel. - Page 5

Prager:

„your argument that bonding "doesnt work with all dogs."

 I didn’t say that bonding doesnt work with all (some) dogs. 

I was trying to illustrate that bonding does not necessarily have to include lots, or some,  petting for all dogs to bond to owner...as all dogs are different.

Some like petting, some don‘t as much. Some react to high excited voice...others don’t as much.

I had 2 males that were VERY VERY bonded to me...but could do without lots of petting...it was always their choice, not mine. But a crowbar could not separate them from me, eyecontact was paramount to them (and not in a separation anxiety way either). 

Anyone else have this experience with petting?
 

PS: vocal praise is different than petting praise. vocal praise is good for all dogs. Never met a dog that reacted negatively to vocal praise (maybe neutral but not neg)...petting yes, can have neg. connotations depending on the dog..vocal praise alone, no neg. connotations that I have ever experienced.

 

 

 

Last word...promise.

I just wanted to get Valks comment to me, on pg 3 up here, and my reply.

today, advanced level of training (if that can be so called) mainly based on dog's prey. that's a trend in both camps - handlers, who owns the dogs and breeders, who supply this kind of dogs. new generation really don't know how dog can be trained, if that dog don't have sufficient level of prey drive.
back then training through prey drive didn't exist. the dogs, i was grown with, wasn't from prey oriented breeding. and there weren't any problems to train them in past, neither i have problem to use same method today. i guess main reason for changes in training methods isn't that these methods are better, but due to overwhelming amount of dogs, who is not suitable to be trained through the method, through which their predecessors have been trained.

Valk:

Marker Training - doesnt only work with extreme prey dogs.

Reinforcing behaviors that you want from the dog, or to teach him...by marking them and giving reinforcement with something the dog wants within a second of his compliance (reinforcment can be anything the dog wants at the exact moment-what ever it is...food, toy, tug, a bite, a second bite, going out of a doorway, jumping down from the car...whatever he desires, grabbing a stick on the ground, whatever...) It works for all drives...and even with no particular drives. But every dog, except for a dead dog, will have an agenda...and that is what we are working with....from minute to minute it can be something else the dog wants. Pair that reinforcement with your cue and praise...repeat, repeat, repeat,...proof...intermittent reinforment...and soon you won’t need to reinforce anything anymore. This is not reward training. It is more like operant conditioning.

Q man said:
I started training in the 70's and learned the old ways of training...It has progressed immensely and there are better ways of teaching...Not necessarily training...

True. My message all along is that marker training is great to TEACH new behaviors. It needn’t be done forever.

Once you have proofed the dog in all conditions and are sure he knows what he is meant to do upon a certain cue...then we have a bunch of other tools to keep him honest, if need be.

Which is why we need that big tool box and +/- training.

in the 70's I was a member of local obedience training club. Had never heard of Sch.

at that time for those wishing to do anything past backyard, it was pretty much AKC/Speciality Show or AKC Obedience.

training was pretty much positive/negative. positive being praise, voice, touch. negative being leash corrections, negative/harsh voice.

heel was walking unobtrusively at side, sit when owner stops, not impeding progress of owner and every step demanding attention or treat.

I know it will be hard for some to believe, but dogs got very well trained, obtained titles. owners had very well behaved dogs they could take in public and have control over.

jmo,
Rik

JesseJones, that' s pretty much how I think, too. Start the dog off with treats, then once they have learned the behaviour phase them out, and reward with praise.

Prager, the GSD is now in many different directions.

in what way do you think treat training is cruel?

for LE/MIL/PP dogs, maybe so.

for maybe several hundred thousand , world over, GSD owners/exhibitors, maybe not.

jusy curious,
Rik

Jesse that was my thought on "training evolvement" remark from Gustav.
in regard of clicker, i do familiar with that trick but never had interest or needs for it.
if you has interest to modern methods, perhaps you should also realize that human did train the dogs for millennia and during all that time methods of training was pretty much conservative. nevertheless they were effective, because emphasis was placed on selection and use of outstanding specimens for each particular purpose.
it seems the envolvement of new training methods started only in second half of XX century and this "coincided" with moving of dog's role from practical to entertaining use.
thus entertaining dogs should have entertaining temperament and accordingly, entertaining training.
look at those sport events with castrated performance imitation of real work purposes. and these events are guidance for millions of present and potentially future dogs owners and breeders. of course those dogs can be trained only through nourishing by delicious treats and excite by the clicker. anything else could be too risky, can wreck dog's nervous system and "damage", other way a "good" dogs and make them unsuitable for "work".

Ric, I have said why I think so in OP.

@Rick . “Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform .” Mark Twain.
“Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.” Leo Tolstaoy

“But what good is the popular opinion, if the lot of us just follow like minions?”
― Criss Jami
“I feel unsafe when the majority is on my side.”
― Hans, :)
And last but not least:
“I don't imagine you will dispute the fact that at present the stupid people are in an absolutely overwhelming majority all the world over.”
― Henrik Ibsen

Prager, I can promise you I am not on side of majority.

also, I know Mark Twain very well "skin a cat" in previous post caused offense.

like your dogs and contributions, wouldn't pay your prices.

Rik

Valk-
Things evolve.
Granted not always evenly or for the best. Sometimes when a pendulum swings too much to one side - things correct themselves again, or over-correct themselves....but each correction of ideas lead to a upwards spiral in knowledge eventually.

It has been scientifically proven by behaviorist from Pavlov to Skinner that each behavior receives an immediate consequence...positive or negative, which will strengthen the repeat of that behavior or the elimination of that behavior. This is a truth whether we are training dogs or people.

This is nothing new and has been used by dog trainers, more or less for a hundred years...only perhaps with different verbiage. What is different now is a bit less use of negative reinforcers and punishment for issues like in Koehlers time in mid last century....the so called yank and crank. Often punishments resulted from the dog just not understand what we want when we try to teach him something. Marker training, is just an excellent and fast way of communicating with the dog consistantly and clearly, in order to tell him what we expect from him and teaching and strengthening that behavior through a reinforcer and praise.

Has absolutely nothing to do with weak nerved dogs and not wrecking their nervous systems. IMO. Just the natural evolvement behavioral science.

PS: I don‘t use a clicker either (to marker train). I just use my voice.