I think treat training is cruel. - Page 35

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by Jessejones on 06 December 2018 - 18:12

Thank you.

See my third sentence above about this thread not being about MT:

“The ludicrous title of this post does indeed involve MT because that is how most people, that know how to train dogs, use food.”

See, this is what I mean...why one has to repeat oneself ad nauseam.

by 1Ruger1 on 06 December 2018 - 19:12

Jesse~ As I said in my lengthy post, I disagree that the thread was directly about ML.
Could it go in that direction if someone was assuming certain things? Yes, and it did, but I don’t believe that was Pragers doing or the intention of the original topic. That’s all.
And again here we are and nothing new is being said.

I learned long ago that if I take the time to post thoughtful comments and others refuse to read what’s written I can’t control that and I’m not going to respond repeatedly to what I’ve already addressed.
I just don’t have the time.


by Jessejones on 06 December 2018 - 20:12

thanks for that insight into your thinking about Pragers insight and intension 🤔.

by Prager on 06 December 2018 - 20:12

@Joan To me, sport is not a measure of all things like to you. I think the sport has some techniques of training to be learned from but as such, it is destroying GSD breed. I have said that I do not do SchH to title and I still say that and I do not have the time to or desire to do so. That is why I asked you.
As far as me failing in some competitions? I same as others have failed many times indeed in PSA yet i titled dogs in PSA and with problem GSD in a sport designed for Malionis. PSA is a difficult sport so failing is a common occurrence and there is no shame in it. I have been in PSA trials where 90% of dogs failed overall and in some levels, 100% failed. There is no shame in failing if you learn from it. I am not interested in sport for competing forsake. Back then we were friends and it was just a thought for me let you train one of my pups. I got several of yours and they all but one( which I kept for myself) were trained by me for LE and security,... that is what I do. One of those dogs had 2 apprehensions in first 6 mo with the LE agency.on the border with Mexico. I have too much training to do for a living and do not have time to play with sport. To me sport is only for learning. I have done and titled dogs in PSA only to shut people who claimed that I have never titled a dog. Just like you do now. So there I have titled dogs in PSA which is much more difficult then SchH and I have done it several times. And now I am done. And No, I have not titled dog in SchH. So what? I have not trained a dog to hunt for truffles or point at birds either. So what?
I train real dogs for real work. I leave playing with dogs in the sport to people who have things to prove to the world. What makes my world are dogs who actually work in LE and PP and S&R . I like behavioral modification since it helps dog owners and to dogs and I have 'fixed" hundreds of dogs who would otherwise be put down. I train dogs for social skills and reliability and to help their frustrated owners and not to look pretty on the competition field doing fake protection. That is why i have given up PSA too. And believe me contrary to your statement I can teach the dog to sit.


by Prager on 06 December 2018 - 20:12

I think that is a big problem here. People don't read the post they criticize. Some, it seems, just read the headline: "I think treat training is cruel". and they go off the deep end based on knee-jerk reaction. I wish people would read my original post in detail and not just making their opinion by just skimming over it, but I guess that is too much to ask.

by beetree on 06 December 2018 - 21:12

Ruger, 😂. What can I say except I think you are being naive and give too much credit, or certainly more credit than I would as to why this thread is never ending.

Admin edit, if you have nothing but sarcasam to add then don't bother, now please quit with the immature nonsense.

Glad you are feeling better.


2ND Admin edit, deleted what was added after my comment above, enjoy your break!



by Prager on 06 December 2018 - 21:12

@joanro. can you please direct me to the post where according to you I have said that using treats will lead to euthanasia of the dogs?

by Jessejones on 06 December 2018 - 21:12

You mean you turned down a job offering 10 cents an hour???

I am determined to get that vid snippet of my dog chasing a deer with a recall based on sissy marker training.

My inner Carnac, is telling me that this post might get shut down soon...so I wanted to say to Prager:

Believe me...I read every one of your posts in great detail from the first, until I realized you did not know the basics of marker training, while insisting you did. Which is NO crime not to know MT. But to say you did, over and over again, that was just too much.

Even then, after I started skimming the same baloney.... I STILL went back and slogged through them minutely just to be sure.

So don’t bother replying. This is purely for the record.

mrdarcy (admin)

by mrdarcy on 06 December 2018 - 21:12

Can members please stop the sarcasm and childish insults, if you have nothing further to say on what is being discussed then please move along. I will be editing and deleting any further personal digs at each other, TAKE IT TO PM'S.


by Prager on 06 December 2018 - 21:12

OK I found it. FYI This was written  before  JJ admitted that marker training can be also used for positive punishment ( correction) ,..before that  JJ was saying that marker training is "without stress without pressure and joyous"/ To that I have said this: If the dog is not taught that the handler is in a leadership position, which clicking ( as described by JJ) does not, then such dog with even minimal streak of dominance will assume a leadership position and then often does become overly protective or handler aggressive. Such dog quite often ends up dead euthanized which is the ultimate cruelty of treat + training.


Obviously, I admit that while not ideal way to establish a leadership position in a positive clicker or treat trained dog such leadership position can be achieved by other additional means. The point is that majority of trainers are using marker training of new commands in a positive "non-stress, non-pressure, Joyous" only way without other training which enables the dog to establish proper hierarchy in a relationship with the handler. 



In another word the dog who is not taught that the handler is in a leadership position is often a problem dogs.  . And that may end up such dog to be put down.

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