I think treat training is cruel. - Page 34

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by ValK on 06 December 2018 - 17:12

I feel you truly love the breed and post without an agenda.

i think i do have sort of secret agenda. i trying to let people to understand, GS dogs can be much better, than those of today's dog owners uses to.

sadly the breeders, who is responsible for quality of supply, mostly comes here only to post ads for sale but not to participate in discussions or to look for feedback.

modern training allows weaker dogs to achieve more, which in itself is a good thing, but all together is bad for a/the breed

good remark with following support by factual example.


Ruger, somewhere in another thread i believe it was Rick, who say "good dog starts in whelping box". which is very true. if whelping box can't provide decent dogs, then all kind of innovative trainers have opportunity to step in, with bunch of new tricks to tweak that dogs to looks better than they are.


by 1Ruger1 on 06 December 2018 - 17:12

Apple~ I don’t see the post as Prager being an iconoclast, but you’re welcome to your interpretation.

A handler could certainly be seen as a Pez depenser if other forms of reinforcements aren’t incorporated and I believe that was the point . And “treat motivated training” is quite popular and some might not understand the simple, yet very powerful reinforcement of physical touch and verbal praise.

I’m not suggesting that anyone said anything in particular about anything.
Many things were said, but my point is that it went off topic from the get go and because of that I believe the original topic was turned into something else very quickly.

I’m speaking only to the topic and the subject of the original post. And simply stating that it was an interesting read and many of the comments made by other posters who undersrood the topic were very good ,,,

If one reads the first post as it was intended to be read it’s not being presented as something Prager himself discovered lol, 🤔

Prager is presenting his thoughts, ideas and opinions about “treat based training” ,,,,
I personally thought it was interesting.

That’s all😊

by joanro on 06 December 2018 - 17:12

Apple: The post is more about Prager presenting himself as an iconoclast. When using food, the handler is not a Pez dispenser and, as said previously, there are many other aspects to building your relationship with your dog. Also, no one advocating the use of food said anything about not including petting or praise. As I have said numerous times, whether the dog is working for himself or the handler can only be an opinion and not objectively determined. Bribing has nothing to do with reinforcement. A bribe comes before a behavior is displayed and a reinforcer comes after the behavior is displayed. You don't condition a dog to have hunger pangs by using food. The result is not circus tricks if the behaviors are basic behaviors such as sit, down, heel, come, etc.

Very good post. Logical and true.

by joanro on 06 December 2018 - 17:12

Ruger, you have not addressed the op stating treat training is cruel...he said many times during his posts and tried to show how the ultimate cruelty of using treats would lead to euthanizing the dog...absolutely rediculous statement.
If a dog needs euthanization because of a bad temperament, using food reward is not the cause. And he said food reward is cruel because it gives the dog pain in his stomach...rediculous!

by 1Ruger1 on 06 December 2018 - 17:12

Valk~ I believe I read that quote somewhere too and I do like it !
I agree with your comment as well.

Sadly there are many very good quotes by others that get lost in the endless, consistently lengthy, repetitive posts made by some, and that turns the average reader away because most simply don’t have the time to read so much.

Had I not been sick and in bed I wouldn’t have had the time to dedicate to reading this thread and the 30 plus pages, sifting through it was worth the time. 


by 1Ruger1 on 06 December 2018 - 17:12

Joanro ~ I did in the first paragraph of my long post. Please read it


by 1Ruger1 on 06 December 2018 - 18:12

Admin edit, once again I will tell you to PM a moderator if you have a comment for us. mrdarcy (Admin)


by joanro on 06 December 2018 - 18:12

Ruger: Joanro said,

“You like to pick brains so you can use what you read then use at a later time as though it's your experience.”

Joanro~ you can’t possibly really believe that. ???

Prager (Hans) ~ Sadly it was necessary for you to elaborate on your accomplishments, I appreciate the way you remain gentlemanly while being insulted time and time again.

Of course I believe it. He is a trainer on here that's it. He tried to get me to raise a pup of his and train and put sch title on it, because he said he does not know how to train for sch. Now he is claiming he does. His psa dog failed the test. The trial scores were posted a few years ago on here...!the dog was already titled and he still failed the trial.
Too much conflicting facts with what he claims on here...but take him at his word, Ruger. It's the internet after all.


by Jessejones on 06 December 2018 - 18:12

Especially Ruger-

I’m going to air sour grapes now - to explain something.

My crime is that my posts are perhaps too long, to try to cover too many over generalized statements made by others.

The ludicrous title of this post does indeed involve MT because that is how most people, that know how to train dogs, use food.

Are there people that unknowingly bribe a dog?...sure. But that will always backfire. Food reinforcement used in MT is not a bribe...it is a form of operant conditioning.

My point was always to debunk the crazy statement that food in training is cruel. Nothing more, nothing less.

Then came the slew of comments that were incorrect and made no sense, regarding MT. So I had to correct the posts because these comments did not accurately portray MT. It was not a difference of opinion...it was just plain incorrect.

There was so much unfactual premise in those posts, that could not be answered, as worded by the posters. Which showed the posters did not know MT. And I could only repeat myself to try to show the errors of the posters statements.

Then after a while, who else jumped in? Those that use MT and that were reading this thread as it was evolving...namely Apple, Joan, Baerenfangs Erbe, Susie and myself, and MrDarcy, for which I never thanked him, BTW!

Now, 34 pages later...other people are saying exactly what I have been saying all along, and getting accolades and thumbs up and all that stuff. That’s all great and good.......and deserved.

....but I was saying the same thing back on page 2 or 3, I believe...Namely that once the dog understands the cues learned by mt , and has been proofed to an extent...only then will I use a combination of other techniques, including corrections, if needed.

The first 20 pages was sheer insanity....me saying over and over again that MT was not the SAME as postive only training which the op keep pontificating incorrectly on.

Where was everyone else back then, besides the above mentioned??? Crickets was the only things I heard.

Apple says: “The post is more about Prager presenting himself as an iconoclast”
And yes, I agree with this. He is attacking and tearing down MT without even knowing exactly how it works...which was proven over and over by his posts.

Your premise that MT covers up perhaps a weaker dog...My answer is, well, is that the fault of MT? Or, does it show how effective MT is?

I think the later.

And that if weaker dogs are being bred, it is the fault of the market and the breeders, not MT.

Your agenda is your belief in a type of dog that you like, that you grew up with...that you are missing today. You do not have a financial agenda, as some others do.

Financial agendas are ok too...but lets keep them honest and the facts straight.



by 1Ruger1 on 06 December 2018 - 18:12

Jesse~ feel free to air your sour grapes🤗 ~ I’m all for allowing others the right to express their feelings, opinions, thoughts, and ideas even if they are different from my own.

I don’t know that we disagree on anything except that this thread was not originally about MT, though it is now lol!


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