I think treat training is cruel. - Page 32

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by beetree on 06 December 2018 - 01:12

Ruger, never mind you thinking you are having blonde moments, you came to the same conclusion— extending this dialogue is akin to expecting the beating of the dead horse will now enable him to arise. 🙂 Let us just say that if one had only one source to inform themselves within any internet representation, it isn’t always those first or self introduced ones that bear the most truth. As a matter of fact it is often the farthest from it.

by ValK on 06 December 2018 - 02:12

Joan:
Valk, the clicker is only a marker, not used as a command when teaching a new behavior.

that's why i said "vocal encouragement/prohibition" which isn't a command but serves as marker on dog's act, whatever the word or just sound you choose to use.

 

Jesse, i'm not criticizing you. i just don't like any kind of obsession. i'm not acquainted with Prager but, albeit sometimes i disagree with him, from his communications i have no doubt about his experience of dogs world and handling/training them. lack of pictures or videos? so what? i also don't have videos and never did trained even single dog in exchange for financial or any other reward. thus i'm not professional but hobbyist. does that mean much in here? from my personal 6 dogs only last one was titled in schutzhund and i did this rather because of boredom, than to prove something. it was also curiosity to see how that thingy doing in the West. b.t.w. on my first attempt to join GSD sport movement, i was kicked out from club due to differences in views on the training.
this board is nice place to see different perceptions and views on breed, particular dogs, read interesting stories, hear interesting thoughts but sometimes became sux when personal agendas or ambitions start to overwhelm other way, interesting beginning.


by joanro on 06 December 2018 - 02:12

For what it's worth, valk...I have never used a clicker in my entire life!!!

by joanro on 06 December 2018 - 02:12

So valk, you say you are not a professional, but you are a hobbyist...that's fine. No reason for you to make any videos. You titled one sch dog? Well congratulations, you have titled one more than pragr who does claim to be a professional dog trainer...yet he has zero videos..this is not the 1980s, but is 2018 when every body has a cell phone with a camera...even pragr. Yet he has not one video, not even for promotion for his so called professional training business. It is less than likely he has trained anything.
Duke is a professional trainer, and he has dozens and dozens of videos. Because guess what? Duke actually does train dogs professionally.
Pragr doesn't even train as an amature...and he has proof. But he reads a lot of training books.
1Ruger1

by 1Ruger1 on 06 December 2018 - 02:12

Beetree~. Not a blonde moment lol! That’s hair color for you and Jesse! You’re gonna need it trying to “set the record straight” lol ~

Jessejones

by Jessejones on 06 December 2018 - 03:12

Valk says:
 Jesse, i'm not criticizing you. i just don't like any kind of obsession.

I understand Valk. And for what it is worth, I don’t criticize you either. I feel you truly love the breed and post without an agenda. I like your posts. You have nothing to gain from posting a certain way. 

However there are people who do have an agenda. And that is even ok...I am glad to have met some of them...those professionals, and may reach out to them one day. They post straight and true. 

But let me also say this to you....I have no agenda. 

But more importantly, I can promise you that I have NO OBSESSION. 

I just know about marker training. Pretty much everything there is to know about it. For close to 20 years.

Do I use it exclusively in training? No, I don’t...which I have said on just about every page. I use it in combination with lots of other stuff, depending on the  dog and situation. But I use it a lot... because it is efficient.

 

ADD: I have just edited and removed the second half of this post. Because it just don’t matter to me anymore.

To me, it is enough now to know that a lot of the folks I have long respected here,  agree with what I have been saying, often saying it better... and also posting their proof to illustrate the point.

I will close with...Not all that twinkles brightly is gold....and the emperor’s new clothes ...both come to my mind in this post.


 

 

 


by ValK on 06 December 2018 - 03:12

Joan, of course i'm not professional albeit my first serious introduction into training started when i was 9 y.o. kid and was allowed to train under supervision of adult guy at club, to whom the pup have been assigned. eventually at the end this pup, after been rejected, was given to me and was my first german shepherd dog of whom i did continue to train.
14 was an age when kids allowed to join the club as a members, but at 11 an exception was made to allow me with my dog to participate in regional competition in junior class.
so i have plenty of years of interaction with dogs. do i say i'm exemplary trainer and my way of training is unique and best? of course no. i train the dogs in the way i used to and most likely many wouldn't like this. but why i should care? it works and i don't see any needs to switch to something new just because someone found this new more exciting.
i do keep my eyes on those new offerings but what i noticed - all of those innovation intend for purpose to pull weak dog to acceptable level of performance because use of older technique are impossible for that goal due to dog's quality.
there are other people in here who do not share videos but their remarks, thoughts, suggestions and advises do not let doubts in regard of their knowledge.
Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 06 December 2018 - 04:12

I am so sick of the notion: He was clicker trained - must be a weak dog...

by joanro on 06 December 2018 - 05:12

Valk, internet is internet.

by duke1965 on 06 December 2018 - 06:12

BE didnot see that mentioned by anyone, but fact is that modern training allows weaker dogs to achieve more, which in itself is a good thing, but all together is bad for a/the breed

when we look at the video from Mike suttle, that millions rave about, the one where he makes a pup with no drive or desire to pick up anything, into a pup crazy for the pipe, using clicker training, we can come to several coclusions and questions

first, Mike suttle is great trainer, no doubt about that

second, there is difference between genetic and trained behaviour

Holding a pipe is different than searching for a pipe, so I doubt this dog will function as detector dog, and if it does, it need to be constantly shaped up and markered up to keep going, iaw the handler who is going to work that dog, must be as good a trainer as Mike.

What will be, after great videos later on, and people will breed this dog, any ideas about suitability of offspring ??? 

NOW this whole story can be copied on ANY smart trained dog today in sport, what are we actually looking at in the end, dog or training ?

training getting smarter, dogs are getting weaker

but that doesnot say any dog trained with clicker is a weak dog, sort of a all cows are animals, but not all animals are cows discussion

 



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