I think treat training is cruel. - Page 28

barefangs erbe. excellent post. I totally agree with you. Now let me ask you, you say that after the negative reinforcement you clicked the reward for correct behavior. Well in Koehler I do not click instead I say good boy and pet the dog or some trainers give a treat or play with the toy. Personally, I do not see any difference in a principle between clicker and between Koehler - in principle. Would you agree?

It's really beginning to get annoying. There is and there isn't. The difference lies in the level of reinforcement. Every method is related and can cross over. Nobody is going to invent the wheel new. 

You can imprint a dog to understand "how to learn" from the very beginning. And that is why my dogs learn incredibly fast and easy. Because I'm actually building a relationship through training and setting my dogs up for success.


And oh my goodness, will you look at that... no more food being used.... *gasp*....

Prager-

While you have seemed to have boned up a bit on marker-clicker training in the last few days, and have changed your tune a bit from earlier without admitting it, I can still read between the lines that you don’t know marker training and have never used it.

Which is fine...no problem at all!

Where my issue comes in with some of your comments, is the constant arguing (oops, sorry, I mean discussion) of points about a system that you have never used.

And to reply to your ‘discussion points” is just sheer impossible, because you don’t know the system.

There have been SO MANY good posts here about marker training by Apple, Joan, BE, myself, and others (my apologies if I left out a name) explaining it.

Yet you still try to trap people.

Marker training is all about timing the marker to communicate a behavior in REAL TIME. Which you can’t do by saying good boy. It’s just not fast enough. The marker is separate from the reinforcement. Will your way get you to the goal? Yes, perhaps, but not as fast in many cases. AND the most important thing, is the the dog figures the behavior out by himself. Like BE says, and I have said, it is only a tool and you can COMBINE it with other tools.

All you have to do is try it on yourself one day. Give someone a clicker...and they should think of a behavior they want you to do...like touch the left front corner of the coffee table. You pretend you are  the dog...do anything...the other person will start clicking once you get closer to the “thing” or “behavior”, even if it is just looking at it, or moving towards it 1 inch. No words, except good boy AFTER the clicker can be used, but is not necessary. But, they have to MARK within a millisecond of your movement.  Marking is an instant FEEDBACK system for the dog that he is on the right track, in searching for a behavior we want.

And because the dog is doing the thinking....he will never forget it. And no, it doesnt only work on puppies.

I have a old rescue Australian Cattle Dog...when I first got her about 6-7 years ago, she was fully grown, perhaps 4 yo. The first months I had her, I made the mistake of only ONE TIME, clicking while she was turning her head 1-2” to the left or right.
Well, 6-7 years later...she still tries that behavior with me, although never again having been reinforced for it.

Most dogs never forget a darn thing!
I will post a video, but have to make it first....

You can Marker train any dog. No matter what age. On top of that...it is an amazing tool for a NEW older dog! You will cut out any possible confrontation with the new dog, during the learning phase. Even the most hard bad-assed dog you can find.

I do not mean to be argumentative with your Prager...I know you know a lot...but you have a bunch of us here trying to tell you something, that you don’t want to know about.

I would respectfully suggest (edited)  perhaps getting yourself a marker training video, maybe Micheal Ellis has one... and just learn it.

BE-

Frigging awesome video! What a great team you make with your dog! 

PS: Yes, that is why we are all getting crabby with you! ⬇️

 

@ barefang erbe. SOOOOOOOOORY. crabby huh. Did you noticed that I agree with you!!!??? I am just trying to have a conversation. Seems like that is a lost cause here. Waste of time really. 

Yes, for people who don't want to understand the whole topic is a waste of time.

No, marker/clicker training has nothing to do with Köhler.
No, marker/clicker training is not "old".

I grew up with Köhler, and training/education changed a lot during those "early" days of structured teaching of dogs.

I like the very different "tools" we do have today. They ARE new, they are better, they are way more humane.

Today the dog is able to learn how to learn, able to act, not to react only.

Positive only?
Nobody believes a dog will function with "positive only" training,
BUT
a dog that learned how to learn (and has success figuring out what to do ) will learn quicker and more motivated than any "old fashioned trained" dog.

As long as you don't compare/compete, it doesn't matter for you (although it does for your dog), otherwise you will see the difference pretty soon.

High drive/low drive/puppy/adult/civil/prey doesn't matter.

I really didn't want to care, but this is a discussion about fundamentals...

Forgot to mention: Take a look at the first vid of BE again-it's a perfect example...

JJ please stop preaching. You are novice compare to me. I have used marker training since 80ties doing S&R and then obedience and protection and I still do. I have read many books on it study what Baklabanov does. Even went to his seminars and learned from his students. I have just went on the internet to see if I missed something since so many people here think there is something new here. There is nothing new and you know it so all you can say is that you can not explain to me what is new since I have never done it or understand it. That is a joke. You do not know me and you can not even grasp what I am saying. So please stop responding to my posts since I always read all people say to me and your posts are just a waste of time repeating all cliches and truisms which I knew about decades ago. I am sorry I got little testy but I am sick to be told what I do not understand by you. I have no time to read over and over your worn out arguments without any new substance.

You do not know me Prager-

There is nothing I have said that a novice would say, on the whole thread. I’ve been using marker training for coming up on 20 years.

I call out massive BS! You have not been using marker training since the 80’s!!!!!

You would not write the stuff you have written on this thread it you did!

You have Joan, Apple, BE, me, and now Susie saying the same thing.

Yes, it is a case of incorrect fundamentals about MT....which is why from the first page, I could not let your comments stand alone!

Why don’t you post some of your videos?
 

AAAAAAAND yes, it is still possible to train a dog without clickers, markers etc, just tell him NO after unwanted behaviour and praise after good behaviour

Duke_
That comes out of the blue....and is not the point at this point of this thread.
No one on this whole thread, that uses marker training, has said that to do as you say does not work ⬆️.

This is just amazing...I’m at a loss for words, believe it or not.

All tools work together, for crying out loud. Adding marker training is incredibly effective...more so than only just saying No and good boy! Lordy.