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by Allan1955 on 23 November 2018 - 12:11

Absolutely appalling !

The scene with the GSD was probably set up. If such dog would get an officer killed than the officer is just as incompetent as the dog. Such scenario is not common in modern police work.

There is no need for that kind of testing.

I like to see Black malinois pull that shit out in Holland he will probably get banned from his own club.

 

 

Jessejones

by Jessejones on 23 November 2018 - 17:11

So sorry Prager...
I must be losing my comprehensive reading skills...I misread your post on page 1. First, I thought the post was from Duke...Second, I didn’t see that you had mentioned the minute marker on the vid where the kick you mentioned takes place.

I watched it again...now I remember that part.

Yeah, lots to say about that scenario. As per usual in vids, we don’t know the whole story. But, if I were to guess...yes, I’d assume too they want to make GSD’s look bad vs. all Mals looking good.

Now, I am not saying this GSD is a good LE candidate, cause we don’t know. All I’m saying is the testing, if first time, was not fair to the dog.

The set-up:
If this GS was meeting this handler and decoy for the first time for this presumable “test”, then it was a total setup for the dog to fail.

You don’t take a dog, possible green, for first time testing with new handler/decoy to check for appropriate civilness or fight drive, onto a slick floor and have the decoy fight like that. Of course you will ruin what is perhaps a good dog before he is even adequately trained for LE work. You will do the cardinal sin of putting doubt in his mind just by this over the top initial test.

The kick was successful because the dog may not ever have encountered one, if green...and on top of that, the dog had zero floor purchase. He was on an ice skating rink and could be pushed around 180 by the decoys leg pushes/kicks with minimum effort on the decoys part.

If this was again a first time test...then like everything in the dog world, everyone needs to take it friggin slow.

Build even the testing up slowely. If dog passes easy basic tests...on grass...then light Defence...graduating to harder and harder...and then slowly add all the various obstacles and variables, as he and if he, passes each test.

Don’t start with trigonometry testing on a dog if the dog is just learning his multiplication tables. That is a major way to ruin dogs. Always build it up.

And yep, for LE, I am only a keyboard warrior. But dogs are dogs.

Valk-
Yes, Kamikaze dogs comes to mind with some of these Mals.
Does not seem smart tactic for the dogs to hang on no matter what the perp is doing. I did not see the practice of targeting a weapon in- hand and then  hanging on.

A dog is so lightning fast and agile, that a re-bite will probably be to the dogs advantage. Even if the dog slips his grip, the perp will not get far, before the re-grip.







 

by ValK on 23 November 2018 - 20:11

Koots: 
I believe what Valk is saying is that some breeders of dogs are taking that breed towards characteristics that go against instinctive survival behaviour.

i would say not some but today all breeders of supposedly working dogs do that.
bordered to absurdity mass obsession by prey.
seeing how breeders demonstrates their pups, giving ball/rag and lifting that pup by tail, and viewers-buyers on another end getting climax from such "toughness", because pup instead of protect itself, continues to hold on toy... left only to scratch on head and ask WTF happened to people and GSD breed?

Jesse:
The kick was successful because the dog may not ever have encountered one, if green...and on top of that, the dog had zero floor purchase. He was on an ice skating rink and could be pushed around 180 by the decoys leg pushes/kicks with minimum effort on the decoys part.

that not really much matter. sure, the test can be performed in different environment and by different methods but dog was doomed to fail. albeit that dog do have good aggression and seems not hesitant to place the bite, he does lack of dominance trait to be suitable for protection purpose.
that's major problem in nowadays breeding. GSDs being bred to be extremely submissive to human.

Jessejones

by Jessejones on 24 November 2018 - 02:11

Valk says: that not really much matter. sure, the test can be performed in different environment and by different methods but dog was doomed to fail. albeit that dog do have good aggression and seems not hesitant to place the bite, he does lack of dominance trait to be suitable for protection purpose.
that's major problem in nowadays breeding. GSDs being bred to be extremely submissive to human.

Valk-

I was waiting for that comment. Hehe.

Could be true that many gsds today are not as hard as in certain decades in the past. The dominance trait probably has gone up and down again, in the last 120 years...depending on what is happening in the world. During the Rittmeister’s days it was probably not super high, as the dogs were still closely breed to working shepherd dogs. Then perhaps at a high during the Cold War. But certainly on a downward trend now. And because of all the spits between SL and WL, pet bred, Euro or American dogs.
The gsds problem might always have been a bit because he is a ‘thinking/thoughtful’ dog, and in some ways, sensitive, therefore prone to overthink some things...where as a Mal might not. A mal might just go for it without too much thought.  JMO (generalizations can sometimes get one in trouble!)


by ValK on 24 November 2018 - 02:11

The gsds problem might always have been a bit because he is a ‘thinking/thoughtful’ dog

Jesse, if that used to be problem, then it's not problem anymore.
if dog's brain processing power consumed at 90% capacity for balls, rags and chase, not very much remains for that dog to be used to think thoughtful :)

by Gustav on 24 November 2018 - 10:11

I think Koos and Valk make good point about trending the breed toward unnatural instinctive responses when in prey mode and threat or fighting occurrs by the prey. It is natural for dog to sometimes alter grip, or regrip, or growl when gripping to respond to prey object putting up fight. To try to eradicate this response by penalizing dog in trials and training only insures these survival traits that are essential to basic makeup of dog will slowly be eliminated. 😫

Jessejones

by Jessejones on 24 November 2018 - 18:11

Gustav:

It is natural for dog to sometimes alter grip, or regrip, or growl when gripping to respond to prey object putting up fight. To try to eradicate this response by penalizing dog in trials and training only insures these survival traits that are essential to basic makeup of dog will slowly be eliminated. 😫

I agree, Koots, Valk, Gustav...

...it is natural Instinct to regrip, growl and even shake/pull the Prey. It is extremely effective in tearing apart big prey.

At the same time, It is also important to teach the dog control in the fight and to keep an ear opened for our commands.

And...when in competion and there is a point system ...and a ‚winner‘....  the judging for said trial must become ridiculously tight and often nonsensical in order to find that winner.

So it becomes just more nonsensical as time goes on and natural behaviors are penalized just to raise an imaginary bar to find a „winner‘.

This is the problem with the point/winner system. It is turning dogs into robots and forces an extreme stylized and artificial version of the dog.

Same in the conformation rings - breeding and grooming for a stylized cartoon character to reach an imaginary high bar. JMO

 

 

 

susie

by susie on 24 November 2018 - 18:11

This is the crux about trials-
In it's origin it's about pass and fail.

Everybody who ever trained a dog or two, knows that "points" have to do with

- personal diligence
- knowledge
- training abilities
- luck

Trials in itself were never ment to find the genetically "best" working dog.

Prior to internet people tended to watch the dogs by themselves;
today people who have no clue about working dog temperament as a whole do base their decision on points only.

The result...

by Gustav on 25 November 2018 - 05:11

I agree Susie....when I go to Nationals or WUSV, I sit with another breeder or trainer and we evaluate each dog in their performance. I don’t even listen for the score, nor do I care. I make notes based on what I see from the dog. Often dogs with very high points reflect Little enthusiasm or comment from me. Of course, some may feel I don’t appreciate the superlative training, I do....but I don’t go there to see results of training but quality of dogs.

by duke1965 on 25 November 2018 - 11:11

you are so right susie, now make the rest of the world understand that please

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