Limited Registration Discussion - Page 4

Gustav, that's what I mean by having to do due diligence...we had to do it in the past, and now. By no means, was I implying that we breed on pass/score alone. The highest score doesn't say everything.

Rik, I don't think LR automatically is someone being hypocritical. I'm sure there are excellent breeders that use the LR to help preserve the breed and make it harder for people to breed without the standard in mind. I'm sure that if I'm the type to title, health check, etc in order to breed, I'm going to look for the same in my stud, etc. I've said previously, I have never had LR, or even looked at an LR litter. Not by choice, just never came across this in where I've looked, but I don't think it is as common in the working lines. I'm not sure it would have bothered me. Realistically, why would it, unless I wanted to breed below their standard?

Gustav: Vito, trust me( or maybe not...lol) but the scores of Sch test would never be a barometer for me to breed. Actually, compatibility of two dogs involved both genotype and phenotype are much more important. But sport scores and show titles ( select titlesVA) are bigger reasons for breeding today than anything, and to me they show a “ lack” of due diligence. Go to high score dog or the dog that got 98 in protection....not realizing that most of the 98 is result of training and may be totally incompatible genetics to dog bred to. Go to the VA 1 or 2 or 3 dogs to breed, not realizing that politics and kennel/handler has a lot to do with that placing as opposed to compatibility of the dog bred to. IMO, this is how we have gotten away from standard and into specialty dogs. Not sure how LR would fix this...just an old cranky opinion.



Thank you, sir, for stating so clearly why the breed today is not what is was only a couple decades ago.

Selecting breeding dogs with high scores, ie precise training motivated with food and toys rather than natural talent of the dog, will get dogs with high food and toy drives....fine if that's what one want in a dog..
On the other hand, "dogs that score consistent 84 in C" are not a problem but will be an asset if the reason for 84 is because the dog is " too aggressive towards the decoy" and the judge frowns on that...and the dog does correct healing but does not stare into the handler's armpit waiting for the ball to drop.

A dog that scores 84 in C "consistently" needs better training. Most dogs that are high drive in any way will be aggressive. I don't know any dog that didn't want to just run into the blind and bite. Clear head, training, etc. The less drive the dog has, the less training comes into account, but training is still needed. Even a dog with low food drive needs to be taught to sit for the treat.

Is this dog who I want to breed to my Muffy? Not sure. Due diligence. Is this training? Does the dog have a clear head? Is my breeder going to lift the LR status because I only scored an 84?

Joan,
Is food and prey not natural talent of the dog?

Yes, I'm sure prey drive has probably increased over the years. Both genetically and environmentally. Watching old videos you won't see flashy dogs doing obedience. It isn't 100% genetic. Those dogs obviously had some prey drive or they wouldn't do half the exercises in protection or on the farm. They didn't promote it in all areas. In fact, they killed it in some. Obedience was exactly that. Be obedient. There was no need to be flashy, just correct. They did not promote prey drive, but it was there. Same in protection. I'm sure at first, some didn't know what drive they were working the dog. But the main idea was that you played bad guy and the dog did bitework. Over time, and with knowledge, we have evolved and hopefully try to balance our training and try to customize it to each specific dog, as these aren't cookie cutter robots. Back in the day, most dogs weren't started in protection until they were "mature enough". Now, most people start them young. Work on targeting, grips, barking, etc in prey at a young age.

What drives does hearding require? It was there. Do I think some go overboard in their programs? Not at all. I'll take as much prey as I can get. I think where they fall short is only focusing on that. Not making sure your bringing all ingredients to the table. Training is a huge factor. Take a dog and only work him in a specific fashion and that's the picture you'll get, mostly. I don't know how many times I've seen people take uniform littermates and how different they will be in 6 months.

No, food drive is not talent. It is innate drive that depending in the nerves, dogs with extremely high food/ toy drive can be a pain to live with.
Yes, a clear head and controlled aggression that some judges frown upon because they prefer prey drive rather than serious, I want to get the man intent type dog is going to score lower than the high food drive type dog.

I was not talking about a dog running to the blind to be dirty in the blind. Some dogs do not respond to toys and food to work in obedience...some dogs will only work for bite reward. So they are not inclined to focus on the handlers armpit during heeling. Unless you have actually had a dog like I'm talking about, you won't appreciate what they are...they are different and not common anymore because they have been selected away from for purpose of easier training by less talented trainers.
If I'm breeding for natural, territorial protection dog, I rather have the dog I'm describing over the toy/ prey type...those dogs by their nature will not take the initiative to protect, without command, like the female I posted pictures of who protected her owner from the intruder sneaking up behind her owner.

It's not a common dog that has the amount of drive to do flashy obedience AND have natural aggression to protect instinctively....I have a female right now with her first litter who does possess both those traits along with a very clear head.

I never said you mentioned anything about a blind. Simply an example of most dogs without training get dirty.

Prey is natural, and we can either promote it, leave it alone, or kill it.

You're talking about a dog that stares at an armpit? Do you really believe that is genetic? That because it has so much prey drive, it is genetically programmed to stare at an armpit?
You don't think this is poor training? I train will toys. Teaching the dog to focus on you is what needs to be trained. Through training we can teach the dog that focus and not looking at the ball, gets the reward. I can have my ball hanging in his face and the dog will know that focus on me will be the only way he gets the reward . Teaching a dog to stare at a ball in the armpit, under your chin, or on a clip around your neck is not good training.

I'm curious. If you don't use food or a toy reward, what is your method? I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'd just like to know. If you're simply training pets, I'd understand, as you aren't concerned with how it looks, as long as it is correct. I assume you are doing sport as you're a breeder, right?

You are not going to shame me with your insults, to take a dog away from a family that lives one to three thousand miles away to breed it 

Joan, i'm sorry to hear that. it wasn't my intention and so far i truly don't have any reason to be hostile to you.
and nowhere i said about requisition of dog from owner with purpose to bred. if owner is full of selfishiness and don't care, so be it. i don't think there are any legal way to proceed with such task.
in my little private space i don't have dogs because i'm not breeder and it's too late to become one. unfortunatelly outside of that space i have hard time to find type of dog, i used to.

Vito Andolini
I'm sure prey drive has probably increased over the years.
What drives does hearding require?

that what i'm wondering about. when in western breeding substitution of defense by prey had become norm in GSD breed?
after all, even historically at roots of breed was a guard dogs to watch and protect livestock, not a hunt dogs.

Valk, nobody is substituting one for the other. Basically, focusing on one over the other. Some on here are claiming that people are breeding for prey without focus on defense, etc. I'm not saying that isn't true, but you can and should have both. You can't complain about these people and go to the opposite side of the spectrum, only breeding defense and not focusing on prey, etc. The GSD has always had Prey. It may have increased over the years because of sport and other breeds(Malinois), but promoting that drive and evolving in training to utilize it just makes it even more apparent.

Give me a dog with somewhat balance, courage, clear head and good nerves and that to me is ideal. The breed had all of these things way back then. Tapping in and using them is more recent.  Same with LR....(to stay on topic!) 🙄

 

Valk: Joan, i'm sorry to hear that. it wasn't my intention and so far i truly don't have any reason to be hostile to you.
and nowhere i said about requisition of dog from owner with purpose to bred. if owner is full of selfishiness and don't care, so be it. i don't think there are any legal way to proceed with such task.
in my little private space i don't have dogs because i'm not breeder and it's too late to become one. unfortunatelly outside of that space i have hard time to find type of dog, i used to.


Fair enough.
The dogs you seek are out here, you just need to know where to look. People such a Gustav knows where they are...and Duke. They have resources most can only dream ablout. O:-)

Edit to add: Prager is another valuable resource.

Vito Andolini
I'm sure prey drive has probably increased over the years.
What drives does hearding require?


Preydrive has increased int he breed because they are easier for modern training for high points...with the exclusion of the higher fight/ aggression dogs.

Herding requires herding instinct.

The dam and Grand dam of the young dogs I posted pictures of has herding instinct...has been able to even work the herd of boer goats I used to own.

Today, I can see her express that instinct when I have her with me while I drive the side by side gator.....she will wear the the gator from the front as I reverse it, then switch to the rear and wear when I go forward...till I tell her, that' ll do....going from side to side as though she is keep a flock or herd gathered . It is quite wonderful to watch.

She will even catch a goat for me that would otherwise be impossible for me to catch....I currently have small Nigerian/ pygmy goats. When I got the first one and released her into a big yard, I changed my mind and decided to put her into the adjacent pen.

These are large pens with no way to hem a wild goat up to get hands on. So I put Chekta in and told her to " catch!"...one lap around the pen through three foot high deep grass, and she was able to overtake the goat and catch her by the back of the neck. She held on, pinning the goat to the ground till I got hold of the goat.... A command to "out!" And "down!" Not a mark on the goat, not a drop of blood!
And so I was able to put the goat in the other pen....two more goats I added, which were waiting in the van in the parking lot.
Herding instinct is either present or not....one can not teach a dog to herd, only teach control.

And yes, she does pass that on to some of her offspring.

Limited registration has nothing to do with qualities like I described, only selection of breeding dogs will preserve it.