"The New Training Trend" - Page 2

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GSDguy08

by GSDguy08 on 15 September 2018 - 17:09

Hundmutter and anyone commenting, I am not saying "prong collars are new" (Per Rik's comment), and "The New Training Trend" may not be the correct wording either; It's just becoming the "fad" and the popular thing taught in numerous seminars now. People go, learn how to use the ecollar like this, and how to use a prong collar a certain way, and then some go and start a dog training business. I am noticing that a number of these trainers when sending the dog home, will run their clients through a little course of how to maintain and upkeep the work they did; One trainer claimed that most owners are not fit to upkeep the training or progress of the dog without the ecollar. That this is the easiest way to transfer the abilities and upkeep to the owners.

Here is a video; This is in no way to bash any trainers or business at all, bear in mind; Just seeing this become so common on countless trainer pages all over facebook lately. You may not notice so much in this sped up video, of how much the ecollar is being used; The lack of actually teaching the commands, but physically shaping a dog into certain commands, etc;


https://www.facebook.com/juliesk9academy/videos/410351529496080/

GSDguy08

by GSDguy08 on 15 September 2018 - 17:09

Okay I don't know how to make the "link" where you can click it.

by Gustav on 15 September 2018 - 17:09

Gertrude, most of us that have been around the block know what you wrote is true. Sometimes, it’s better to just let people say what they say and have the last word.
Jessejones

by Jessejones on 15 September 2018 - 17:09

GSDguy-
YES! I have noticed this “trend” on YouTube mostly.
And I just spoke to someone else about it a few days ago in a pet store.
It has become very trendy to use an ecollar in certain pet training circles. Especially in “pulling on the leash” cases, which is notoriously tough to correct with some high energy dogs.

I think GSDguy, that the reason these videos are popping up are becasue the manufactures of the ecollar, dogtra/sportdog...etc. are using trainers that have an online presence as “influencers” on social media to use and showcase their products against payment for advertising. I now work in online sales and product placement and this is a HUGE phenomena.

In the ones I have seen, the trainers are showing how great they are walking their dogs downtown, without a leash, only using a relaxed heel and an ecollar...or as they like to call it; a remote collar or remote trainer. Sounds less ominous that way.

The vids show various versions of this: different trainers walking high energy working Mals, working GSDs, or Dobermans through downtown areas, usually in New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles or Miami, all off leash. Showing the dogs sticking to their legs like glue, and then doing long (stay) downs on the sidewalks (no leash) with pedestrians passing them left and right while the trainer goes and drinks a cup of coffee - gone for about 5 minutes out of sight.

Then they go on to explain how to do the non-pull heel:
1.) put collar on and off many time without using stim, get dog used to collar.
2.) put on lowest stim, like level 1, which is just a tickle of a current, see if dog reacts in any slight way like the Turn of head, flick of tongue, or looking behind him...etc...
3.) Work at the lowest level that you get the slightest reaction from dog.
4.) Work with leash to correct dog and show him what you want. Not just with ecollar alone.
5.) Start walking with dog at your leg. As soon as dog forges forward past where you want him in relation to your leg when walking, use the constant stim button, and at the same time tug or jiggle the leash backwards again to guide dog back to leg position and release constant stim when in position.
6.) Don’t over use stim. Use as little as possible, If no effect, or dog starts ignoring it, go to next higher level.

So basically it’s use constant low stim button until dog is back in position and release.

I have stimulated myself with one on the lowest level. It is really just a tickle like a TENS gadget used for muscle stimulation in orthopedics. At higher levels, you will get a good zap. Tough dogs in high drive might need that, some trainers might think.

BUT, these are not learning/training tools.
They should ONLY be used once the dog knows the exercise and the cue and is proofed....and then chooses not to execute it. It is a consequence (the as gentle as possible stim) of choosing not to do it.

So, personally, I feel the prong collar and the ecollar are good and useful tools, IF USED CORRECTLY. And even very necessary for some dogs. Education is KEY.

It is easy for a government to ban these things, because most people not in the Know-how, that do not have stubborn big powerful dogs, or hard dogs...will be all for the ban. It makes easy work for politicians and makes them look good in front of their constituents, and like they care about animal welfare.

Well, maybe they, the politicians and their constituents, should go and look at conditions in slaughter houses for pigs (smarter than dogs apparently), cattle and chickens...and the mass animal transportation trucks, bulldozers and cranes...and get back to us about doing something there. But no, that it too messy, best stay with something easy and high profile like dog collars.

I really dislike watching IPO and other sports where the dogs are so blatantly obviously trained with ecollar, as can often be seen by their lightning quick turns in heel work. Which are ALL dogs in National or International trials.
Nor should they be used for an out in bite work.

I don’t think they should be used for competion training, but I am sure no one has a chance in high level sports if they dont train with them. I prefer to see them used for real life scenarios where dog need to learn to walk nicely on leash, not putting himself or handler in danger, and other already learned exercises.

And prong collars...well they are just a plain necessity for some dogs. Much less cruel than constant high pressure pulling and jerking on leashes. Power steering for dogs...But again, KNOW HOW TO USE THEM CORRECTLY.

And before I get reactions from some posters here, I love my dogs more than myself and still would use both tools when appropriate for the safety of me and my dogs, and surely don’t want the government banning them.










 

susie

by susie on 15 September 2018 - 21:09

Gertrude, I don't tend to joke.

My words have been:
Because of those "trends" e-collars and prongs are officially forbidden in Germany.
Absolutely no "new" trend - for anybody trying to get fast success without care of humanity those tools, which can and still are very useful for handlers who know what they are doing, are choice no1...

As far as I know:

1. E-collars are forbidden by German, Austrian, and Swiss law.

See German Animal Law $3 S.1 Nr.11
= not allowed at all (!), even police dogs have to be trained "electricity free".

2. Prongs collars are forbidden during trials and on the trial places by the clubs ( prior/during / after the performace).

In case you are accused of animal cruelty by making use of a prong, the court makes use of
Tierschutzgesetz $3, the chance to loose is pretty high.

Both tools are still used in the clubs, the e-collar in secret only (no wonder), the prong at least more careful than a couple of years ago.

Several breed and working clubs tried and still try to fight against the law, trying to establish a kind of "license", but chances are slim to none, and for the prong I await a total ban by law during the next years, too.

In case there have been different decisions during the last 3 years I didn't hear about, please correct me.

Personally I think the e-collar, when used accordingly, can be a great tool, same with the prong, too bad that too many idiots ( including IPO competitors using up to 3 e-collars to the same time on one dog just to get the magie winner point - but way worse are the 10000s of clueless pet owners hitting all buttons because they are too stupid and lazy to educate their pets ).

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 15 September 2018 - 22:09

That's just what I meant about the dangers of having laws which are not then policed, folks ! If German legislation is what Susie says it is, how come these gadgets are in such high use ? Sounds as though the law is being given two fingers !  I suspect that what Gertrude is talking about is only the large breeds, doing IPO and other training / competitions, or other PP / manwork - a la what Jesse is talking about - and not "dogs" in general. There really should be no need for the routine use of an e collar or the prong on most medium sized or small pet dogs of other breeds, and I guess it is their owners in my country who have sponsored most of the discussion leading to the banning. Because they will have encountered 'trainers' or others who wish to use such methods without much reason or excuse, so will probably have demonstrated the sort of thing Guy is calling attention to, dogs with the "shit knocked out of them", and be seen as unnecessarily harsh. Unless you want to scare your spaniel (eg) away from snake bites, or some specific purpose like that - and that's not really a UK necessity !  Doubt it is much of a German one, either.


GSDguy08

by GSDguy08 on 29 September 2018 - 17:09

Ran across this video yesterday; Here they are working with a puppy with the ecollar; I am noticing this part of the "trend" too, that trainers are starting puppies on ecollars and prong collars at 4 months, some even earlier. 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1390782417725350&id=133978373293039&fs=1&focus_composer=0

susie

by susie on 29 September 2018 - 18:09

It's a wonderful world, isn't it?
Q Man

by Q Man on 29 September 2018 - 19:09

The older I get and the more I know the "More Stupid" people get...

~Bob~
GSDguy08

by GSDguy08 on 29 September 2018 - 21:09

I think one of my concerns with all of this is that the client basis out there is seeing "fast" results, and dogs who look phenomenal to the public eye …. Not that it doesn't still take time to do the training, but they will have expectations of instant success for whatever trainers they decide to take their dog to, and if it isn't as "perfect" that fast? I would really question, how many of these dogs are dependent upon the ecollars? Will they still do the work once the ecollar is removed? I'm not one to bash any trainers out there bear in mind, but seeing this as the only method, for every dog(Some of the videos have like 10 dogs in the yard playing or walking around, and ALL of them have ecollars on), of any age? It's making my head rattle. I'm curious, do competitions allow ecollars? (Not Schutzhund per say, but any competitions out there)


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