Ae German Shepherds self aware ? - Page 3

I recently took my boy to a hotel with me. There was full length mirror on the wall. We walked passed it and he caught a reflection. It surprised him, startled, he woof/growled...and within a second or two, he re-accessed the reflection, seemed to realize it was him...then ignored it for the rest of the stay.

In training dogs and horses, I have learned they react to body language very well. I do believe it is their first language. An old boy told me once...you won't be working my horse until you can tell me whats going on in that herd out there. Who's the boss, who's the bottom, whats that colt saying to that mare...etc. I was 14.

I learned much younger than 14 that dogs also have their own language. They are not naturally very vocal unless for reasons of alarm, play, or warning. I have always said, a good trainer is not someone who is able to teach an animal, human language...but a has learned to speak the animals language.

When my old Black Russian passed recently...I thought my old girl gave up on life as well. She didn't want to eat, go out, or get petted. Three of her favorite things. She came back to me a short while after I brought home 2 pups. First she taught them to leave her alone...then she began play with them.

Deuce, the Black Russian had a very long beard. I swear, he could carry 5 gallons of water in it . I had a friend that was squeamish about wet dog faces. He would push Deuce away saying, " Get away, you're all wet ! " One day Deuce went and got a drink, loading up his beard...He nonchalantly walked over to my friend and shook every drop of water all over him. It turned into a game...he would actually try to sneak up on him....for years. When he succeeded...you could plainly see, his "laughter"...

I had a rotty and my BRT that both watched TV, back when I had one. The rotty would look around or stop paying attention when commercials came on...unless it had animals in it. My Brt behaved more like Sunsilver's.

I believe animals are allot smarter than people give them credit for...how self aware I don't know, but i believe they are.

Off topic animal... I have a rooster. When the pups came, he realized they were wary of the horses. When the pups would chase the chickens, all of them would take off running across the yard. That rooster would go to the nearest horse, and stand under it's belly....never to be bothered.

I think it amazing what animals figure out. I think most people miss it.

Jo and Herb
Fascinating stories !! I would like to expound .... the stories that you shared are not simple experiences because mental / cognitive functioning capability . This is not simple thinking but rather complex thinking problem solving capabilities .

I started this thread to have people share stories -- great stories BTW. I wanted to start something that didn't involve how they got ripped off . Most of the threads have been people just complaining or gripe threads. A topic everybody could write about where there is no right or wrong. WhatI have found so far... some of the most experienced people .. have nothing to say about this topic ... And this makes me wonder if this is akin to what I often see, : take the dog out onto the field and work it , no thought process/ consideration about what and who that dog is.

HerB what many people don't realize is that dogs are primarily nasally and visually oriented ! So their communication is mostly oriented towards that - what they see or smell. .. not all... but a good portion of it. This is why I write that I train my dogs in 'pictures'. I think also that what we read in best seller books about dogs , loses translation. We know that a dog's sense of smell , it's sight , it's hearing is so different than ours , yet when it comes to dogs , we think in terms of being a human . However when we teach our dogs do we keep that in mind.... Understand this in the dog ... Most often we go through a set of rituals ... In that respect ... I think we miss some of the most crucial aspects of the GS !!

So .. your story about the dog sharing .... We talk about 'alpha' .. that is the most half baked concept I ever heard. Why .... because most often it is not the strongest domineering dog ... that is why . The dog that has highest rank in a pack ... is the dog that can get the others to be it's ally !! The dog that can get other dogs on it's side. Now.... does this story about the dog sharing make more sense. And sharing helps contribute to an individuals survival now , doesn't it .. especially when you can make friends to cover your back !

IMOp if you want to teach your dog , train your dog .. you have to " see the world your dog sees , hear what your dog hears , feels what your dog feels , think what your dog thinks ". And realize that our dogs are much more intelligent and aware than we probably know ... JMHOp....

Are dogs self aware......yes.  This is why dogs are used in many psychological and social experiments, because they are similar to humans in so many ways. 

An individual who understand self is separate from others is considered self aware.  Being able to focus on self is another sign of self awareness both of which dogs possess.  There is public self awareness (how one acts in a group and how dogs base behaviors on the group they are in), and private self awareness (feeling fear is considered private self awareness because you perceive self as separate from environment and other and that danger can be directed solely at self).  Another aspect of self awareness is knowing one's needs, preferences, and internal states such as hunger, and yes, dogs possess these as well.  Self awareness leads to self control and compassion.  Self control is what we work toward in our dogs, such as not running after another dog during training, not biting another person because they are annoying, or barking incessantly when the doorbell rings.  Compassion, previous example of a dog pulling an injured friend from the highway, dogs who know when their owners are having a bad moment and show they care.  I believe accepting that dogs are in many ways similar to us only helps with training.  Dogs have right brain/left brain differentiation as we do, they share many neurotransmitters that we possess such as oxytocin (the cuddle and bonding neurotransmitter) and research has shown that dogs  have high levels of this when they see their owners and pack members.  Dogs and children share similar levels which is why both will continue to want to be near a person who abuses them because of the initial rush from that neurotransmitter at the very first few meetings and continued exposure to oxytocin every time that abusive person is momentarily kind, that is the strength of oxytocin.  They possess serotonin, norepinephrine, dopamine, and endorphins at similar levels as children.  It would behoove us to remember this when training and why old yank and crank methods, coercion and painful punishment do more harm than good.

Joan, love your story about the elephant! They are indeed extremely intelligent animals. I wish there was more that could be done to keep them from being slaughtered for their tusks.

Fascinating stories! Let's hear more! Love the one about the terrier!

Yes, studies have shown that dogs respond to visual stimuli far more than verbal. If you give your dog a hand signal and a verbal command at the same time, but the hand signal is for a different action, most dogs will choose to obey the hand signal.

I started a scent detection course this week, and one of the first things our instructor told us was to beware of using our body language to get an indication from the dog. Many false positives in scent detection are the result of the handler doing this. We just don't realize how easily our dogs can read our body language.

Good example: When doing obedience, I had a problem with my dog breaking her down a split second before I gave the recall command. It finally hit me: she was watching my breathing! When I took a breath in to give the command, she'd respond to that, instead of waiting for the actual command!

Researchers have found many seemingly incredible feats of animal intelligence are the result of very subtle cues given to the animal by the handler. Look up the story of Clever Hans, the Wonder Horse. When the horse couldn't see the person asking the question, he was no longer able to perform at all!

http://skepdic.com/cleverhans.html

Oh, and Centurian...you say you train your dogs in pictures? 

If only it were this easy, eh?

 

Great story about Clever Hans Sunsilver ! I read abouthim some years ago and found it fascinating.

Centurian....

A story about scent... A dog I placed long ago took off from her new owner. She became disoriented and ended up at a neighbors place (out in the country). There was a snow storm at the time. I got a call that they had found the dog, but no one could get close to her. She was fearful in nature, and all though she would "knock" on the neighbors door to be let in... As soon as the neighbor opened the door the dog would run around the back of the house, to the edge of the woods. The new owner would call to her, and she acted as if she wanted to come, but she wouldn't. Every attempt to approach her sent her back to the edge of the woods.

When I got there, the dog was standing close to the house, all the people inside. I thought she would recognize the sound of my car, as she had many times before when she was with me. She held her ground. I got out and stood by my car and called her. She seemed to recognize my voice, but as I stepped towards her, she backed off 10 ft.

I then circled her keeping my distance at her comfort level, trying to let her catch my scent...in a snow storm...lol I finally got in the right place that my scent got to her.. She immediately bolt towards me, and I got my hands on her.

She ignored seeing me, ignored the sound of my voice, and my car. She WANTED to come...but until she got my scent she refused.

I also know I can fool my dogs. If I come out from behind somewhere and change the way I walk...surprising them... They will bark and growl at the "stranger"... again it takes me walking normal, and getting my scent to them, before they will become at ease.

The GSD Pups and chickens...

The first intro..they chased the chickens (about 9 wks). The second..I made sure two of my older red hens were front and center. They're not afraid of much. The pups ran towards them, but the hens charged them, and chased them across the yard. The pups yelling and running for their lives. The pups learned to look out for the RED hens. They also learned that one, of the two, white chickens I have, were "safe" to chase. The two white chickens look very much the same to me...but the pups knew the difference... I could never figure out if that was by sight , or smell. I thought they would all smell pretty much the same, living so close together in a coop. Im still betting on smell.

They stopped chasing the Rooster who went under the horses early on, all together.

They no longer chase the chickens by the way...lol Some times they'll do a quick startle, just for fun....but they know better now.

I will soon start teaching them to "herd" my chickens. They almost have enough self control to not give into the full on chase. Once they get chickens down, I will move them to the livestock. I'm a tad unorthodox. Neither may be cutout for it...but we will find out :-)

Centurion, you wrote:

When my dogs look in the mirror I know they recognize that they are looking at 'themselves'. Because some of them always barked at other dogs , even other GS . Yet they recognized and they knew that the image in the reflection was them . For an animal to do that , a dog , I found that fascinating !

Which is exactly  what I wrote in my first post.

Even if I tried to get them to look at themselves (mirror), with coxing and movement and even treats, they ABSOLUTELY refused to look. Yet, all pretty much barked at dogs on tv, even if they are not moving.
This leads me to think that they are aware that that image in the mirror is an image of them. And seeing themselves makes them uncomfortable as they have no need to „see“ themselves...ergo, they „know“ themselves.

Not to belabor a point but, if we are talking only about self awareness, then self recognition is the first level of self awareness.
Me vs others - the knowledge that “I am separate from others”.
Dogs have this. 
That is all we can test with relative sureness.
Other mirror tests like with paint on face, etc..are not as conclusive as active avoidance of ones own reflection. Most dogs will avoid their reflection for the  simple  fact that they know it is themselves, no someone else, and is useless to them.
This alone is huge and needs to be more recognized.
Unfortunately, many so called scientific experiments are not done correctly. Many are done by students and lead to false conclusions. I know this because of my 30 years in the medical field.

I think anyone that works seriously with dogs and wants to get into their world, into their heads, knows the dog is self aware. 

About the other stories given...fantastic stuff! It is refreshing to read other things besides rip-offs and the endless seemingly fascination about civil dogs.

I, too, have experienced the trading of things with my dogs. My new dog will take his prize ,stick, smelly cow hoof,  toy...whatever, to my old dog. Will lay down in front of her and lay the toy between her outstretched front legs and look at her. She will start to chew and he will watch. They lay paw to paw, both noses only inches apart, eventually the old lady will stop chewing. My youngster will then gently take the cow hoof and lift it to her mouth again and both will chew on it at the same time and be in complete heaven together. Sharing for no other reason than happiness shows empathy, a form of self awareness of self and others.

My new dog will also, like another poster wrote, bring me all sorts of things while I am working on the pc...sticks, rocks, pieces of paper, plastic bottles, shoes,...what ever he finds, to give to me. He wants my attention away from the pc and on to him. After a work session, I have a whole pile of stuff on my desk that he has brought. So the dog has an agenda...having a thought-through agenda shows a certain self awareness.

Jealousy? Yes of course. If I pet one, the other will be right there body-wedging itself between me and my object of affection perfectly. Excitement and anticipation? Oh yes...the slightest rustle of a key ring...absolute excitement and pandemonium!
Inner clock? Hell yeah! Its, EXACTLY 2pm and they know time to go to the post office everyday and start prancing around looking at me.

Anyone that does not know that EVERY SINGLE MOVEMENT with his whole body or only parts, is a dog’s language, is sorely missing out. Every flick of the ear, tongue or tail. Every body position, every breath, every micro second pause...are all a dogs language. The different tone of every bark. Every sound from the lungs, no matter how ultra sound and barely perceptible for us, is his language.

A dog lives completely and 100% in the now.
He does not think about the past, he does not think about the future. Only the NOW counts for a dog.
And, we as endless mental ruminators who, more often than not, only live in the past or the future can learn EVERYTHING needed for our life only from living with and watching dogs. Living in anything but the now is fools gold because it doesn’t exist in reality...except in our own head/mind.
Maybe it is no coincidence the Dog is God in reverse.
That is how much I value and how highly I think of dogs, and especially the gsd.

And I always include the forgotten whites in that group when I write gsd.

 

 

Moderators ? I think I can post this ? Subject : dog talk

https://youtu.be/uDDZ17DImoo

I think this will be interesting on the subject how how dogs talk to us and communicate to us. I stress , I did not say read the dog-- stupid expression . I am enunciating : HOW dogs TALK to us !
I put this in this post because even before we ask if this dog is self aware of itself.. perhaps we understand the dogs and what they tell us and how.
For the professionals ... if you plan on teaching a dog , training a dog by helper work ... being able to do this will make. and you would be surprised how many helpers /decoys I have come across that have no idea how to talk to a dog and hear what the dog is saying to them .....

 

Jesse ... nice post..........

Sunsilver   :-)              Well ..it is that easy , but not by  using an i pad though . To share with everyone.. When I say I train in pictures , I mean I create the picture in the dog's mind as a means of teaching the dog what I want it to learn , because dogs will do things when they can see ahead in tjier mind , that is to say , when they can predict the outcome of their choice.  

There is a video online from an episode of National Geographic where Donnie the Doberman arranges stuffed animals in specific patterns such as triangles, circles or straight lines. He has a ton of stuffed animals of different species and will arrange them in groups according to species. He will even arrange them touching hands. This was all done with no training involved.

Sunsilver...funny pic. True, if it were only that easy! HA!
Apple...I remember that video and that Doberman...it was nothing short of amazing! I mean really amazing...not just mildly amazing. Thanks for reminding people of that one!
Cent...interesting sounding ted talk, bookmarked it for later.