6 1/2 mos Hip xrays...Opinions Please - Page 5

joanro I was wondering if the breeeder had DNA on parents too.

Good idea of the microchip chip, and swab for DNA at the same time then put chip number on the swab information. No switching now.

good to put on the xrays too.

I didn't say this pup had pano. I am saying that I have seen VERY similar things and all were outgrown. When surgery is elected, then they have physical therapy. PT might help without surgery. How many dogs recover due to the after-surgery protocol that didn't need surgery in the first place? Surgery cannot be undone. Please, please, don't rush into anything. Condition him. I have no idea where this nonsense that dogs w/iffy joints shouldn't be exercised came from, but nothing could be further from the truth. The dog with the worst hips I have ever seen had the most beautiful long bite I have ever seen, too. 100% sound because he was kept well-muscled and LEAN his whole life. And these hips were HIDEOUS.

Vets are like mechanics, in a way. They like to fix stuff. Sometimes, the stuff they "fix" isn't the thing that was causing the problem, even though the thing they replaced might not have been perfect. ;)

I am not far from you if you want good vet recommendations that aren't sensationally overzealous. I cannot count the dogs misdiagnosed with bad hips. Vets don't look at whether something is functional or not. They look at what can be fixed. MUSCLE is what holds joints tightly that are not fitted properly. A heavy, under-conditioned pup will never do as well as a lean, conditioned one. Fact. If he were mine, I'd build his muscle. He could have a nerve problem in his back or any number of things causing the tail to be weak, but honestly, forgive my bluntness, it seems like they are trying to find a problem because you're describing one and they can't ascertain what it is. If it's actually his hips bothering him, he's got an incredibly low tolerance for pain, because the pain caused by HD is caused by arthritis due to bad fit- not the bad fit itself.

I had a dog diagnosed as a surgical HD case by more than one vet. She walked oddly. She went OFA good. ;) Eden vom Linmarc is her name so you know I'm not just throwing out hypotheticals. This is such a common thing for anything and everything goofy about a growing GSD to be deemed "bad hips."

To be clear, I am not saying he has good hips. He looks like a dog who did impact exercise when not well-muscled. It's not too late to tighten those hips. He will never pass OFA, to be sure, but he doesn't necessarily need to be a dog who suffers because of his hips. If kept muscled enough and LEAN enough, that damage will cease. Can't fix what's been done, but you can stop it from worsening.

Just got back from Ill. I ended up leaving last night. The appointment was at 8 am this morning with a 4 hour drive. I've been so upset, I knew I wouldn't sleep, so I drove instead. I couldn't see the posts here, as I have a flip phone...lol I'm a little behind the times.

So...there will be no surgery for Draven. His hips have deteriorated to the point he would no longer be a good candidate for the procedure.

If anyone in the Morris Ill area need a good , HONEST, vet...I met one.

When I got there, before he took xrays, he told me about his littler of Goldens waaay back when he was going to school. He needed 25 xrays for some assignment. He used his 4 month old puppies for some of them...and found that their hips weren't up to snuff...some rather bad. He told me a "Jenni" story...how he luckily had a pond, and added supplements, omega 3's...etc... All the pups with problems went on to live very well, for very long. Even though their hips sucked. He then told me about a husky...sled dog...with terrible hips.....with no one the wiser from his performance.

He went on to say that this was another option he wanted me to consider, depending on the new xrays. I laughed....and said it was my hope that I could get away from the surgery. With that, I left Drave, and he said he'd call me in a couple hours.

Sooner than expected, he called with the news. He said he only did 1 xray, he didn't need to do more. I wish I could remember all the words he used...but my brain is on over load, and I am still digesting. He said TPO would be a waste of money (funny , the same thing the breeder said for a diff reason) He said his first rule is "Do No harm"...and he didn't think the surgery would be a success. He said he would be a candidate for THR....but he recommended supplements, PT, swimming Omega 3's....and IF we couldn't get him to rights...then THR....which, there is no way I could afford.

I got back to an email from the breeder.... still no info from him about his vet , and repeating his "neutral vet " and a DNA test with a courier...(that he pays).....

From what I understand...NO...he has not done any kind of DNA testing on parents or other pups. He said he wants an "Independant" DNA test...and I don't know what the means....I sent him a link to AKC DNA testing...and he ignored it....as he seems to do often, with anything I say....

Sorry I didn't reply to the posts...I had to get back home to my computer!

Thank you ...again....and again, for all your info, advice, and well wishes.

I am going to collapse now...

You were absolutely right to look into a TPO so quickly--it can't be done after a certain age.

Thank God you found an honest vet. Sounds like arthritis (degenerative joint disease) has already set in? When you come out of your coma can you post the new X rays?

If you could post the name of the honest vet, it could help others.

If you can afford a TPO, you can probably afford a total hip replacement, although you might be able to afford only one hip. But often one hip is enough--the dog shifts his weight to the hip with the THR and often does very well. Just stay away from the fancy ass specialty clinics that charge a fortune and often do a crappy job. Your best bet is a vet school with a really good orthopedic surgeon who specializes in THRs and has a good track record of THR successes. Vet schools charge a lot less than specialty clinics.

There is no way Draven is some kind of wuss with "an incredibly low tolerance for pain." He is very lucky to have a mom who takes his pain seriously and will drive for hours and move heaven and earth to get the right help for him.

Suplements, exercise etc are fine until he is old enough for his THR.

JonRob, Thank you for the kind words. I did much research looking for answers. I also understood how invasive surgery was. My reasoning was that IF he was an ideal candidate for the surgery, his quality of life would be better than conditioning, conditioning, conditioning , and manufactured supplements for the rest of the time he has on earth. Money wise also..pain meds, and joint health supplements add up fast. One bottle of Dasuquin....$54.

Then there was this one video (I've watched many) where a woman got TPO for her standard poodle...6 yrs later he was a Rally Champion, and did lure coursing like no ones business.

As someone with pretty bad knee's...I can appreciate that.

Yes...there was a time limit on the surgery. Draven is now 10 mos, I first noted his gate when he was 5 mos...the deadline for surgery is 11 mos...IF everything is very good.

I spent much time trying to find a vet who I could trust . I have an 86 year old vet I trust explicitly. She doesn't have much time for most people...but she will treat any animal that comes her way, for nothing...or even a couple chickens. One man dropped off his cat to be PTS. He couldn't afford the surgery....Three weeks later the vet called and told him to pick up his cat....to his astonishment. Unfortunately she is an small independent vet. Her "office" is in a pole shed on her farm.She was the first woman vet in Wisconsin. She has no xray machine...to say the least. None the less...she sat on my living room floor with me and cried as we pts, my 14 yr old rotty boy, and yrs later my 12 yr old rotty girl then last spring my 11 yr old Black Russian boy...and climbed a bluff, in winter, @76 yrs old...to make sure my mares after placenta was complete...and didnt blink at the new born filly being tended for hypothermia in my house.

Yeah so...my fear of using a highfalutin vet I didn't know, was palatable.

Enter Dr. Schmidt ... http://www.pinebluffvet.com/doctors-staff/

Recommended by a GSD breeder I have never met. Dr. Schmidt recommended the university of Wisconsin in Madison...if I attempt the THP. He said Draven's groth plates are closed and he could have the surgery now. Its been pretty dark here since the phone call yesterday morning at 11am. I totally believe I can manage PT, conditioning, supplements...It's just that I also believed that TPO was the best I could do for him.

I also understand that everyone has different opinions...and I am soooo ok with that. That is how we learn new ways. I am more thankful that anyone knows, for every bit of information shared with me here.

And today is a new day. I will take it second, by second, with 360 vision on full power. Yesterday was defeat, and laid me very low...but I'm not done. It seems I am never done. LMAO

Thank you JonRon, for the info on THR on one hip....it was something I didn't know...and it gives me an glimmer of hope. Dravens right hip is pretty bad....just maybe...

 

Trying to load the xrays...not working. Will try on next post.

Crossing my fingers this works....holt crap...theyre huuuuuuge~ sorry!

Just replied to the breeders last email...

He now says it's suspicious because I seem not to want a "neutral" vet for an exam, and DNA...sigh....

I have told him, repeatedly...Pick a vet, I will be there. Today I repeated myself again...with the added stipulation that Yoko and Walt (parents) also be swabbed at the same time as Draven.

Is that out of line?

I have offered everything I can including and vet I have used, consulting with his vet...which he refuses to produce.

Another question.

The kennel he got his dogs from seems to be pretty reputable, and in breeding for some time. IF they have DNA tested their dogs, from Drave's lines.... would that be something I could look up ?

This DNA stuff is like rocket science to me...I've never had to deal with it. Silly me always got along with my breeders....

I was also thinking... I have two pups from the same litter....I reckon their DNA would match.....

Crap those are bad hips... it's a wonder the poor girl can move at all! :(

Definitely very severe dysplasia. And I don't see much difference between the two hips. Both are equally bad.

Thanks for posting the vet's name and the X rays. It's good that the X ray posts are big.

Holy crap, his hips are just awful! No amount of supplements, exercise, PT etc is going to miraculously fix his hips by "tightening" things up.

And all those stories about dogs with terrible hips on X rays who did all kinds of wonderful athletic things--supposedly just because they were exercised and kept "lean"--have nothing to do with Draven. The poor guy can't even stand up or stand still without pain.

No one knows why some dogs with terrible hips on X rays don't seem to be bothered by them. They may just have a genetic defect that shorts out the nerves in the femoral head. No one knows.

And no, unless you were running Draven over with a lawn tractor once a week--which you obviously were not--you did not cause his awful hips.  It doesn't look at all like he was grossly overweight as a puppy. And while puppies should be kept reasonably lean, I've seen lot of plump little puppies and very few of them developed hip dysplasia.

If he is old enough for a THR, I would get this done ASAP. Just make sure you have it done by someone who does it right. And do not let anyone put a metal-on-metal THR in your dog. They have been a disaster in people. The metal parts grind out tiny bits of metal that can make the bone and tissue in the area rot. The THR should be some kind of plastic-and-metal deal.

Over quite a few years, my girlfriend and I have had THRs put in 9 dogs. Only 2 of them needed both hips done. We would have done both hips if needed for the others but those dogs did so well that it wasn't. And there was no sense putting those dogs through the pain and risk of another surgery.

The breeder is being a total asshat and I would just take care of Draven ASAP and forget about the breeder for now. He could collect a DNA sample from Draven and then send in a sample from an unrelated pup and label it as Draven's. There is no reason to trust someone who is acting so badly. Jumping through the breeder's hoops just causes delays in getting Draven the THR he needs.

Get Draven fixed and you can focus on kicking the breeder's ass later. The fact that his dogs produced a severely dysplastic pup may not be his fault but acting like an asshat about it is. I doubt you will ever get a dime from him. There are a few superstar breeders who will refund the price of the puppy in a case like this if the owner is taking care of the dog, but they are rare.