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Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 21 November 2017 - 04:11

In my opinion, drive is not the same as motivation. You can have the driviest dog in the world and still don't know how to motivate the dog to work with you. There is so much more to motivation than drive itself.

by duke1965 on 21 November 2017 - 09:11

LOL just look at a few episodes of ceasar milan and see how general people think how dogs "think" and fuck them up real bad

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 21 November 2017 - 12:11

It's the main issue we have with pet people. They believe dogs think like us. But they don't. Do they have us figured out? Absolutely but not because they think like us. They read us like an open book because they are masters of manipulation and body language.

Most people are so darn hard on their puppies its unbelievable. "He knows how to sit" and then get angry when a 10 week old puppy won't sit in a highly stressful situation. "Why won't he sit without food?"
Well... let's see, would you expect algebra from a 3 month old Toddler?

They expect adult dog behavior out of an 8 week old puppy. It drives me nuts because on one hand they treat them like human babies and on the other hand they truly believe they can understand them and act like adult dogs. The last thing we need is people even more anthropomorphize dogs than they already are.

by Hundmutter on 21 November 2017 - 15:11

BE Well saidThumbs Up

by Centurian on 21 November 2017 - 16:11

BE Yes, that is the crux of what I am trying to enunciate ! Thank God someone else understands !! And moreoever , what I am saying is the the word drive, as generally used ,does not 100% accurately and specifically describe a certain behavior. And BE .. a critical point you mention about people ... This is my aim in talking about language , so that they can better communicate and understand their dogs. Fantastic point stressed by you .

Apple , Nice commentary . I once thought word for word what you wrote, would have probably written similarly. But I broke out of that indoctrination , the imprinted , unalterable way of thinking . I was taught and tested to utter all that you wrote. Actually if I made a mistake , in executing or understanding what you wote, my mentor hit me with the Sch whip [ non a b usively that is]. 20 years ago I would have written the same , I talked the talk , walked the walk, with those that set the bar in Germany for dog training. Der Schutzhund , although I only read the English version 30-25+ years ago I had masterd every word in that book , it's meaning and concepts. I know extemely well your meanings in your post. It is a very good commentary . But lacks... I understand , at least as well as you , every single word , it's meaning , connotation and application that you discuss. When one reaches a certain level of expertise , as I wrote , one can transcend the language , the verbiage because they have , like yourself , complete and full conceptual canine understanding. The difficulty , others do not .... , many have not gotten to that level . I have worked with helpers in the USA , who worked GS in Germany for 10 years or more , others doing Sch 30 + years.. and they still lack understanding and mis apply the word 'drive' in working with the dog. This is why I continue to rattle on ... Not to debate.. or to tell people what to think - I have two Doctotrate degrees in medicine and another in Behavior . Professional Neoropsychologists friends agree with me ...

Prey ... what is prey ? If you talk about prey drive .. exactly what is it .... It is a description of a miriad  and ' multitutude ' of behaviors. Stalking , ambushing , pouncing , chasing etc etc. . So why in the world would one prefer to accurately describe a specific behavior , whether you agree or not by one word  that is a myriad of behaviors? Or a  behavior that  is either a reflex autonomic phenomena/repsone or abehavior that originates within the dog's cognition , with a word that is a general catigorical term ? Why say the dog is in prey drive ? If i had my eyes closed , I for the life of me would have no idea what you were talking about desribing what the dog is doing exactly. I would simplyher and not be avle to exactly understand the dog, I merely would hear a word.  Furhtermore , that inhibits me to see what the odg's motive abd thinking is .. as well as it's feeling  .These  feratures , from my point of view,are critical in theaching a dog, especially in seriuos protection endeavors !. . But if  you say the dog is chasing the decoy , I now exactly the behavior the dog is expressing.And it gives to me a lillte more information as to the state of mind of the dog. THIS is what is important 'the state of mind ofthe dog , because it contains the thoughts , the emotions , the motives ALL whcich determine and lead to an exact expressed behavior.  Noty a generalized , non specific word as currently used , "drive". I train by getting into the dog's head. I get the dog to perform what I want , how I want , when I want , where I want and the contexts I want .. by getting into the dog's head !  It is not via  my imposing will . But by the time I get through with that dog it wants to perform more than I want  it to . Aside from grachingthe dog impulse control , that is how I control and tyeach a dog. Through understand the m,ind , the thoughts , emotions.. Not by trying to categorize every little thing the dog seems to be doing. Because  learned with behavior in people and animals .. not evrything is at may seem to be.  That is like : confusing a tempermant defiecient dog with faaulty aggression with thinking it has super fight drive. si vous plait .... 

So what one chooses for words - is it important ? Well the example of the dog not coming off the bite , that I described as being genetically faulty .. do you know how many times I have seen this scenario and I've heard some knucklehead state : " this dog has great "fight drive" . Really ? A dog with atrocious genetics being praised. Temperament flawed dog , and being credited with ' fight drive '. I have other people whose mouths uttered , a dog similar to this dog , has over the top drives ! What the hell does that mean . IMOp this is a dog that is wacked out , mentality unsound , and a dangerous dog ! Are you kidding me with a descrition like that : the dog has drive.. give me a break . I have seen , worked dogs like this , who literally would kill the person in the bite suit , . Their motivation was not to fight.. their motivation was to kill ! In my eyes , those are two entirely different needs , motivations and different behaviors. ' Fight drive does not adequately describe what is going on many times. The need to apprenhend vs the need to kill are very different in my eyes and also the dog. Apple I know in reality , working with cnaines , that you can transcend the words , adequate or inadequate . However others without good canine learning cannot. And I have seen a good number of so called experienced people screw a dog up , helpers, Regional Sch directors, and at one time a USA Sch judge,Ring Sport judge, because they failed to understand the why , from where the dog's behavior originates from . That is what I am intersted .. a cliche , categorical word that encompasses a number of behaviors tells me nothing about understanding accurately behavior. and therfore lends to at manyntimes innacurately understanding the dog. Our place is to understand not a drive.. but the individual dog through it's specific ellicited behavior[s].

What I will state .. other theories utilized the word 'drive' synonymously like motivation. THAT usage is Different , a whole different utilization . And that former defntion that equated drive as a specific motivation is not how the word 'drive' is implemented in current day dog training.With drive being synonomuos with motivation, then it was easy to every behavior ellicited having drive. e.g chasing - chase drive . If you think that stupid , then I put forth this : My second Sch trained WL GS , would do anything to 'chase a ball' . I am not talking about having the ball , but chasing the ball-two entirely different matters. He did not have the goal to POSSESS the ball , he loved the ACT of CHASING. That was the dog's need and motivation. Not to possess the ball for it would bring it back and give it up, drop the ball ,in order that I would throw it again 'Prey drive'. the use of that term , does not describe the difference , does it ? How many people have a dog like this. If he wanted to possess the ball I had , he would have a behavior that exprressed him wanting to keep that ball . Like not bringing the ball back . So , If you say the dog wants to chase the ball - that is specific and accurately correct. If you assign every motivation of the dog as I said .. then ok --- the dog has chase drive . But instead , the whole spiel is categorized into the phrase 'prey drive' a generalized non specific term . BTW , the dog makes a choice not to take the ball back .. if you firdt throw a balll and the dog does to take the ball to you , that behavior is not trained , it is not conditioned classically or operantly , it's a choice that dog makes ! [ and the dog thinks ,whether you agree or not : 'i am going to keep this ball for myself']

BTW .. drive theory and learning theories : Nothing , absolutely nothing nnothing has changed in 70 years. To say the motivation description is out of date , when it based upon fundamentals is like saying Pavlovian Theory is out of date , which is similarily based on fundamentals. And in the animal kingdom , those fundamentals won't ever change. Everthingwe teach a dog is based on one of those theories, just the packaging of those theories changes.

Another point: I did not claim that dogs think in every capacity and to the capacity , like humans or have the capacity to think exactly like humans. I said animals , dogs , think and problem solve. They think like dogs.- none the less they do think , not mmatter what I say or dont say , believe or don't believe. Don't believe that if you will . With respect ,if someone disagrees , then the algernative blleif is only but one : the alternative is that the dog only is an object that is either genetically hardwired and innately , instinctively acts . That certainly defies the dog being a breathing , thinking , emotional animal , that has the ability to choose. How many times someone has trained their dog and the dog does the opposite of what is being asked ? Either the dog chooses to disobey or it did not.
Can't be both .If you say yes the dog choosed to disobey ,that is a willful choice that takes thought. If you say No , the dog just reacted on instinct , then why correct a dog that can't think aboutwhat it idi or didn''t do. Why try also to even proof a dog if it can't think about it's behavior. What people fail to undesatnad in order to 'make an association' you have to be able to connect the dots .. that means be able to 'think' . That means to form a correlation to events. As I wrote for an example Premack Principle and it is a principle dogs use. If this .. then that . This is a neuorological mental process. Why call dogs intelligent..say they have intelligence if they can't think.

  Which bring me to agree with Duke... Yes , people screw dogs up because many people can't think / are in a state of ignorance [ many times no fault of their own] .. or they aren't knowledgable and learn terms that don't convey exact meaning[s]. Inadequate words used to convey meaning does exatly that .. screws people's thinking up even more. And I have seen plenty of helpers to prove it ...


by apple on 21 November 2017 - 18:11

Again, I really don't have a disagreement with your commentary, other than I don't think the issue is as much about people being preoccupied with drive, but instead, not understanding there are many facets to drive, drives overlap, they are constructs we use to communicate about dogs as well as train them, and that there are many other traits that traditional working dogs possess that people don't take the time to learn about, understand and recognize in a dog. And speculation is always going to be a part of dog training because you might not know an adult dog's training hx, and dogs can't tell you what they are experiencing. You have to be an acute observer, have some canine constructs in your head, develop some hypotheses about why a dog is or isn't doing what you are trying to accomplish with it. It is kind of like playing the game show Jeopardy. The more information you have, the more likely you are to win. Also, the more experience you have with different dogs as a handler and a decoy is a major contributor to being successful. Training requires people to really pay attention, think about what is going on, and come up with creative approaches. That is what makes it interesting to me, along with a dog with great genetics. I will say, scientific knowledge increases over time, and ethology, like other sciences has progressed. People are much more aware of the intelligence of animals and value that more than they used to. An example is the study of the vocalizations of dolphins and the recognition it is very likely a complex language.
"There are facts about dogs, and there are opinions about them. The dogs have all the facts, and the humans have the opinions."

by Centurian on 21 November 2017 - 19:11

Yes .. Apple , I am trying to enunciate this. And my point unlike someone like you sloppy language gives people the wrong concepts. What I have found that in Germany ,,how they understood and what they did , got lost when transferred to English . An example [ for everyone ] . When I learned to work young dogs we learned [ and I use this term ] agitation . So when I was in USA and went to clubs I see the agitation .
To be fair to the other readers apple , let me be defining agitation in a moment. So they interact with the dog , build frustration ... and before you know it, I see basket case GS , bonkers. Hectic , frantic, non poised. Why because of the word agitation and what the notion of interacting a dog should be. So I would tell them stop ! The purpose of this is to understand what will motivate the dog to express all it's energy to bite. We can use mild frustration , meaning when we work the dog in order to trigger and stimulate it to bite. Frustation is the phenomena whereby you prevent the dog from reaching it's goal i.e. the bite. However they never learned that frustratrion changes to  and evolves to something else at a point. Stimulating the dog , call it agitation , now becomes the opposite of what you want to teach the dog in the biting process. This is why I stay away from ideas as drive promotion via agitation.. Because motivating a dog that has all the capability , the behavor will certainly be exhibited , with proper and enough qualitatively and quantatative stimulation. However , when those are out of sorts , when frustration evolves into something else .. that is not good. I have found that causes more damage to the ability and performance of the dog overall.
Apple and others ,  this is why I write ad nauseum , to someone like you well versed , perhaps exceptionally versed ,  for with your  experience you can transcend the hokey pokey , loose fitting word as agitation

   Another feature I often write about . We learned in Sch 'to always let the dog win", then years later it dawned on me. In teaching .. teaching a lesson that is , since when did this become a contest , a challenge between me and the dog ? Now my mindset is , how do I say , how do I teach this lesson to this individual dog. What do I need to do in order to get him to do wjhat I want him to do. If the dog doesn't bite full ... simply .. he doesn't get the bite. I may have him a adjust to full in the very early phase , but there after , I don't see that aligator mouth , there is no bite. I put the responsibility onto the dog-- I don't fight or battle wills with it. A well bred GS , with good innate working traits learn darn fast. I have had over 30 , 10 week puppies , in my lifetime that learned this in moments.

This is why I make a to do about language and the use of it. I am far from perfect , but when I help people and work dogs , give training lessons, I prefer absolute clear communication and exactitude. Even people in my classes in 2 minutes have the dog sit [stay] in minutes. Clear and precise communication and presented concepts to the handler and the dog.

   Also .. I am in total agreement with you that there are many , a multitude of factors .. and I will further that by saying the MOST IMPORTANT is TEMPERAMENT [ which you stated]. Another thread  , another time.. . Many, many people in the professional canine world do not Fully ** , again I repeat, fully understand temeperament and/ or how to access temperament.   

    Last commet - I am in aggeerment with you . I  will  use the lingo 'drive' everybody wants to use and that you eference , for simplicity . Yes  they are complex and overlap , and the reason for that  in my longo , : is that in  less than a blink of an eye , a dog's feelings , thoughts  and motives can change. To add they can become , like a person in conflict. As a dog wanting to possess and at the same time needing to be obedient and out. Many times the confict exists and hence those that train , i.e. teach , without conflict. So try thinking and  feeling as the dog thinks and feels and I think your teaching the dog will go faster , further and be more reliable.If you would try training,  thinking in thoughts and feelings and motives of the dog .. and I will bet your teaching will be better and faster. 

by apple on 22 November 2017 - 12:11

Conflict in training dogs is inevitable. The trick is to minimize the conflict and understand what is creating it. Certain exercises like the out and the H&B will almost always lead to some conflict. During those exercises, we are interfering with the natural consequences of events. You build a dog's prey drive to chase, strike and possess a prey object and then you require the dog to let go of it. That creates conflict. How you deal with it, how strongly you develop the prey aspect before introducing the out aspect are factors. This is where compulsion has to be fair and other avenues that can lead to the desired behavior should be explored before going directly to compulsion. Temperament issues can also lead to conflict. Being able to discern if the source of conflict is genetic, learned or a combination is important.

by Centurian on 22 November 2017 - 13:11

Apple , You are correct.

Nice commented post for all .. this is why I am more centered on what is in the dog's mind , it's emotions as they relate to the dog's motives. They are what underlies behavior and what leads to behavior and . The behavior also indicates what was /is in the dog's mind and emotion.

On that note , knowing this leads me to train such that I am interacting with the dog in a mindful way . That being said , as Apple refers to , it enables me to diminish , if not , eliminate , conflict. That is to say, If I can get the dog to want to perform the behavior because it understands that behavior fulfills it's need and goal , if the dog on it's own accord chooses to perform that behavior, then there lies a soultion to some conflicts .

To me this is not out of the ordinary or mystical . This is not much different than people in th, generally , you can get anything you want from a person by giving to that person what he/she wants/needs !
Coca Cola understood this and years ago there whole campain was to 'make you feel ' good ' and ssociated that with drinking cola. They were selling and giving people a sense of well being . They ngave people what they needed and wanted , and not many had any conflict or reservation about buying soda, though understanding thoughts, , emotions and feelings can be. If people can be so manipulated , highly intelligent creatures.. think what you could be doing with your dog ! Just saying...

I had a friend that wanted to work his young dog and wanted to have his dog bite straight on the helper. I told him the dog was not ready. He saw the dog bite the arm , in his eyes, more than satisfactory. I said no, the dog is not ready for that frontal by my standards. ... I explained at low level bites , or leg bites the dog looked good , but when he bites the sleev /arm higher , he is weak. My experienced friends [ some helpers] watching , they didn't see what I saw ... but that was ok ... I admit for the newcomers , sometimes experienced , this is hard to 'see in ' the dog.

He didn't listen . Next week the Belgiums came over and worked his dog. So I asked him what the decoy said to him about the dog. He replied , he said lower body bites, the dog was fine , but if i have the dog bite igher , arm bites, , or present the bite at the chest , the dog is weak. I sai, Hmmm and smiled , but couldnt help myself also to say to my firend " I told you the dog was not ready for frontal confrontation.

. The moral of the story .. Apple points out Conflict . That was very hard to see , especially if you think of only defense and prey drives . He saw the dog on a great fast entry , and biting , sustaining a bite. So in his eyes he thought the dog was biting well , always . You would have to really understand the dog to decipher what was going on . Again , this is why I look at the thoughts and emotional state of the dog leading to a behavior. I don't care prey , defense drives . My friend [ and other helpers] was mislead thinking the dog was working well. So the solution is easy here : set the dog up such that he is in his mind he always is feeling safe and secure. Start with one position where the dog is confortabnle and slowly change and evolve [ turn from sside ways to front ] that position step by step , to a frontal position [ i.e succesive approximation ]. Once he thinks and feels secure controlling a decoy in the front high . middle , low , side , front .. no matter where , .. then go on to other lessons in the bite work. BTW , this dog .... went onto do police work when he matured.

Apple is correct .. there is always a genetic and an environmental component . One can say there are Extrinsic **   and Intrinsic  factors at play on the dog. YOU are a intregal extrinsic factor. Whether you are near or far. You are always 50% of the equation. Your very young dog may be working at par, but sometimes if the handler is not in proximity [ ie the less pack support ] you  could possibly see your young dog come down a notch ,[ if you do to much to fast.]  Again , the dog wants to work , but now a conflicting thought and feeling, involving you . I write this because we were talking about 'drive' so realize that you are always a   BIG external factor and  most often , what the dog is doing , is invloving your emotional state , thoughts , position.. You can create conflict even before the dog is in this state or that state of mind. .I am always alwayscognizent of my Demeanor and Attitude !! Notice I am not talking about a drive here . I am talking about my or YOUR state and the emotional state of the dog. To me always talking about 'drive of the dog' is like [ apartially ]  taking your eye off the ball , sort to speak.

So.... nice to have people like Apple on the forum , that points out topics and factors like temperament, conflict , environment etc. . I hope he/she stays on the PDB for a while.....

by apple on 22 November 2017 - 13:11

You mentioned handler proximity during bite work. One of my early goals with a pup/young dog is to decrease the proximity incrementally. For me, it is a way to assess the pup's confidence, intensity and handler dependence. Eventually, I prefer to due on leash bite work using a 15 ' line. You can always adjust the shortness if needed. That is just another subtle example of a way to assess a dog and build his sense of confidence and independence. I see people who do PP only and only use a 6 foot leash. It is not unusual for those dogs to be unwilling to go eighty yards away and bite a passive decoy. Genetics is also a factor and often people into PP prefer defensive dogs that are not ideal in confidence IMO. But the training has to have variety and the dog also has to be nudged to the next level.

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