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by susie on 14 July 2017 - 22:07

You may not use "terminologies" like prey or defense, but you clearly make use of them, outspoken or not.

I just want results, too, but I tend to question WHY the dog acts like it acts, and for me it doesn´t make sense to name two different scenarios the same.

When there is no word for a special trait, behavior,or item in a language, this trait, behavior, or item doesn´t exist.
Whereas when you change the meaning of a trait, a behavior, or an item, it´s not understandable for anybody else.

Makes a conversation pretty difficult

by Centurian on 15 July 2017 - 12:07

That is the difference.. I set up the context undestanding the dog such that it's behavior will be predicatable to me and a behavior that lends itself to predicatable outcomes and results. That is why I don't need my adult dogs barking , and make a fuss when interacing with a pup .. That is the whole point that you can't get through your head. Not only that .. adult dogs actions can act as major distraction , which would be counter to what I do . Their prescense alone with a pup* is enough a distraction. If I have the adult dogs active as opposed to inactive , that may very well send an invitation to the pup to play. Why would I choose or risk the pup to be to be emotionally or mentally taken away from my interaction ? In general , the set up is the same , as I wrote ad nasseum , a group of dogs in the prescense of specific stimulation... That simple. Who cares whether or not the other dogs bark for the puppy?

IPO people / Sch people are so tunnel visioned , so ingrained into a way of thinking , so methologically and technique based , not to mention 99% don't even grasp defense , prey , drive and their foolish terminology that can't see past their nose. I use those words Susie because that is All that many people can comprehend . And here is why I don't with those that know better and who are not stuck in their ways:

A new friend I met 25 years ago asked me a question. He thought he was going to educate me as he knew nothing of my background. So ,as two puppies were running around , frolicking , bickering and doing what puppies do , he turned to me and asked " what drive* are they in ". Inside I laughed so loud , I looked another friend also watching and smiled , beacuse he knew that when I heard that expression that told me me this person had no idea of what he talks about. I knew exactly what that person was asking .. I read him like a book. So I said , as they were chasing one after the other and from time to time wrestling with each other , " they are in play* drive" . Because like yourself Susie , that was his mentality, all he knew was specific drives , prey defense , etc. ! He just froze not knowing what to say , because from his eyes I could see his eyes he expcted the words 'prey drive ' when I said : they are in 'play drive'. You expected me to say prey drive because one was chasing the other , or maybe fight drive,  because one was fighting now and then with the other. But they are simply playing " !. In short , in reality there was a lot, a lot more going on within the pups which I won't elaborate on that the word 'drive' will not account for . He could not know anything else but what he had heard and learned. His learning was so confined by his terminology that he couldn't even know , what he did not know.

So Susie , this is like the foolish , stupid discourse we are having. A group of dogs in the prescense of stimulation ... and you are exping  it to be coined by what you learned as terminolgy and a way of ingrained thinking.
I don't care what anyone labels make clear , I don't ague against what you or I call something..It is not impotant nor is it my aim to change anyone . My posts purpose again stated , are for the readers to look at something with a different mindset , a differnet way of seeing and doing something. Who  cares .. nobody  does , what you or I call something .  Even the terminology in IPIO /Sch is so stupid and off based , that I have to use that foolish temrinolgy because there are those that can see anything but. Sch so non flexible , in the sport and in the theory . As a reult  , just about everybody  where I reside , a state much bigger than any European counrty has turned from IPO /Sch. One ,  IPO  club in my State, people left for   many other European sports that have such a better broad based way of thinking and philosophy.  I don't need to be right..But I do present and want people to think about and understand concepts . Call something whatever , I don't care.. what's it to me... except I hope that some people might reflect and open their thinking up. Posts ended. 

by Gustav on 15 July 2017 - 17:07

Very enlightened post, Centurian. I understand IPO quite well, and have done it and been blessed to have trained with some of the best....but it is only a small piece of the puzzle.....a very important piece for the breed, but there is so much more outside the sport for the breed. So I am pro sport, but we must never lose sight of the forest for the trees.

by susie on 15 July 2017 - 18:07

Without trees no forest

The sum of those single trees defines "forest" -
and in case I work in the forest like a forester or a lumberman it´s helpful to not only know the names of the trees but to know their attributes, too...

When I look at a forest, it´s a "forest only" - but as soon as I have to deal with this forest, it´s better to know as much as possible.

Back to dogs ( I like the forest idea ) : a lot of different drives ( genetics first and foremost ), raw instincts, followed by personal experience ( raising, training, the whole surrounding ) are the "trees" I am able to find in a dog.
The sum of all of this = the forest = the dog in front of me.

Now I do have two choices:

1. I only care about the forest ( the dog in front of me ), but don´t care about the single trees
2. I ask myself "why" is the forest looking like this ? ( the dog behaving like this )

When training a dog it´s about advancing or suppressing certain behaviors, but any behavior is the result of drives, instincts, and experience ( no difference to humans...)

Back to the forest -
let´s guess I am a forester, and some of my trees become ill - wouldn´t it be helpful to know WHICH trees became ill?
In case I want to make wood - wouldn´t it be helpful to know WHICH trees are old and strong enough for making wood?

All of this has nothing to do with SchH/IPO as a whole, but with basic understanding, followed by the ability to educate dogs ( and humans ).
Whenever you know what you are dealing with you are able to either act or react, and in case you want to talk about it, it makes sense to use terms for the single traits you are talking about.

Ringsport, Mondio, SchH, IPO, herding, agility, even dock diving or else -
it´s always about training dogs - it´s about making use of the drives, instincts, experiences of a dog -
there are good trainers and there are mediocre trainers everywhere.

But I guess " I can´t see past my nose".........

by Gustav on 15 July 2017 - 20:07

Like you said, Susie" Ringsport, IPO,Mondio, LE, SAR, Obedience, KNPV, Herding....these and other things all contribute to the breed and constitute the trees. They all help to maintain the breed and constitute the forest. They all have value, I think we can all agree on that.

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