The GSD - a phase-out model - Page 3

Centurian - who said anything about a dog "working better when kennelled", surely that turns the question of the OP on its head ?  There may well be some who believe that; but it does not follow that it was meant as part of this discussion ?  'No difference' is no difference EITHER WAY isn't it ?

Hundmutter , I was a putting forth a thought to ponder because words such kennel , anthrpormorphising , freedom etc had come in prior posts.....

The topic was not about "kennel dogs", but about the future of the GSD breed.
Sitasmom mentioned " kennel dogs".
We are way off topic, but no problem, it's very interesting.
I grew up with kennel dogs, when I got my first GSD I didn't question kenneling dogs because I was used to it.
During the years I realized that none of the kennel dogs, when given the chance to live in the house, ever wanted to go back into the kennel.
To the same time I became aware the "house raised dogs" ( I always had one house dog, and one or two dogs for training ) were smarter, able to solve problems easier, way better in reading my body language and my mood than my "kennel dogs".
Overall they seemed to be happier and more balanced than the kennel dogs.
As result I stopped kenneling my dogs - no big deal, I am no breeder.
Breeders and professional trainers are a different story - it's almost impossible to keep several intact dogs in the house...
On the other hand in a perfect world there is no need for professional trainers, and breeders should have a network of people working for them ( co ownerships ).
I still don't doubt it's possible to own kennel dogs in a a responsible manner, but let's be honest : For the dogs in question it's 2. choice at best, and personally I don't believe it's possible to satisfy the needs of more than 3 kennel dogs for one handler ( at least for me 3 dogs have been more than enough ).

The elderly, forgotten in the kennel, in the best case allowed to potty outside once in a while, the brood bitches, as soon as titled, never seen again...
I could go on and on - the GSD is a highly social breed, but to the same time a highly forgiving breed, willing to love the most disgusting owner.
They don't show that they do suffer...
easy to ignore...

Sorry, double post...

The quality of my dogs ( or anyone's dog) lives should not be Dependant on their monetary gains to their owners.
Nothing wrong with engaging in a hobby or any venture that you benefit monetarily with , 'with' your animals. It just should not be at the expense of those animals.
The difference is would you have them at all 'but for' the money?
I guess I see things differently than many. My dogs are here because I enjoy them I enjoy spending time with them and doing things with them and for them.
I don't keep a dog only as long as it is of monetary benefit to me. And I would never sell a puppy to the highest bidder. Each pup goes where I pray to God , to the best life that dog and owner will share together.
I love this breed of dog, love them. I will give any puppy I breed away for free, to the police for what I feel is the best life that dog will live doing what the breed is meant to be doing and love s doing.
There is no amount of money that can compensate me for my overall feeling of pleasure I feel that I did right not only for my dog,but for the breed in general.
And of course you can t work 10 dogs at the same time.
That's what fences doors and gates are made for! If you don't have a bunch of dogs sitting around waiting for their turn they so much more co operative. And less desperate for attention
I guess it also requires training.
Of course when you have more than a male or two they must be separated when females in heat.
It s not like that 'split second' heat thing is literally split second.
OMG, I didn't see that coming, now my dog bred. I think there is a little warning time to make your arrangements for separation.
A little consideration for quality of life goes a long way for what is returned.
That is the problem and why the breed is in trouble More emphasis on gains over preservation.
I want the breed to be kept as the wonderful breed it is. And while it is not a breed for everyone there are still people that can provide the German Shepherd the life they deserve to be living. Full active and healthy lives.

May sound silly, but my personal "indicator" for not well cared for kennel dogs is the need to pick up poop out of the kennels of adult dogs...
No self raised dog, able to leave the kennel on a regular basis, will pee or poop into its kennel; any healthy dog, used to a certain routine of walking / running free will try to avoid this.
My dogs ( kennel dogs and house dogs ) even tried to avoid to pee ( besides the "marking" of the property corners ) on the property as a whole.
Dogs, when raised well, are very clean animals...

I will second what Susie said ^, about dogs that live in a kennel will indicate how much they get out of that kennel by whether they are 'kennel-clean' or not.
We found that dogs we adopted from rescues, to add to the Farm's 'family', were often not kennel-clean when they arrived, from wherever they had been kept; but after a couple of weeks on our routines, they generally became as unlikely to soil in their loose-boxes as the 'home team', dogs born on site. Only rare exceptions (e.g. we got one, adult, bitch who continued to insist on wetting in the kennel, although she pretty soon started to wait until she got outside to pass solids; may have been an ingrained territorial thing with her).

Not so different from the 'indoor dog', then. Apart from those dogs whose owners allow / 'cannot stop' them having accidents inside ...

Daryl ... I think you may find this interesting as a thought.. not saying what anyone should or not do the folowing .. but think about this : [ it is not difficult to have dogs in pack in a house with all factors in genral , not laways but in general.
You mention one on one training ,handler and dog... not always is that the most ideal . You referenced ' concentration ', yes ? In my house , in the kitchen , I will start a 8 week puppy , 10 week puppy, off leash , around multiple adults that are mannered and controlled. For a number of reasons that  I pass on explaining why. Except for a question that I pose : what is the best way to have a puppy learn to concentrate in learnng and performing a task , other than teaching it right from the start to ignore everything else, everything else , as I interact with it , including the other pack members ? Concentration is exactly that to block out any and all other thoughtsd , including who is present or not . When taugh, everything else , within reason ,should lend itself that nothing else shouldn't matter.
In addition , the other pack members will teach the pup when I set that scenario up .
Protection foundation .... I once stated to a friend that I do this with young dogs : All dogs being off leash , I do foundation bite work with a young pup and  if I tell the adults to platz while I interact with the puppy. I expect them to platz and that is it. As far as the pup goes , that is my job to get the pup interested enough , motivated enough, to learn the protection skills with me , adults or no adults in it's prescence .Then my friend looked at me ... and I said." So tell me , what is the difference from what I am doing now and what someone is  doing line / circle agitation with a group of dogs except I have mine off leash" ? Yes ,the GS can be patient and wait it's turn- if you tell it to and if you expect  it to in many  perhaps not with some genetics based GS , but with many  GS Kennelled  or not kennelled ... Is it not in the nature of a German Shepherd , again in general , to live in pack and work in pack ?  What remains to be stated then is :  what is most optimal as to when and where does the pack spend it's time ...

" So tell me , what is the difference from what I am doing now and what someone is doing line / circle agitation with a group of dogs except I have mine off leash"...

Pretty easy to answer, "your" kind of circle agitation has nothing to do with the original sense of this training style - originally the more advanced dogs shall "teach" correct behavior / drive ( the will to bark, the will to bite, no fear ), whereas your adult dogs have to be calm and quite.

Maybe a nice obedience performance for the adult dogs, but no help for the pup - and that´s what the circle training should be about. In your scenario the pup is on its own, no support from the other dogs...

I don´t even like this scenario for the "adult dogs" - not enough control is not good, but too much control isn´t good, either. I doubt trained like that they are able to perform well ( = showing a lot of drive, although still obedient ).

In the best case any bitework for me is a beautiful "dance" between drive and obedience ( as is tracking and obedience ) - too much obedience and the dance looks boring, too much drive and the dance will become an out of control ride.

But that´s just me, everybody believes in his or her own "style" - too bad, I am not able to watch your dogs - would be very interesting - maybe I am plain wrong.

Susie , your post is not entirely true.
First , either a dog has the genetic capability and motivation to do the work or it doesn't. Dogs , they chase , they bark , they bite ,, young dogs don't need to be taught this by older dogs . You clearly miss the point the way you describe line agitation ... that is done because the older or experienced dogs give emotional support to the younger/ less experienced dogs that are less inclined to behave a certain way. Believe me , if the young dog was up to the task there would be no need for the other dogs . Even dogs , a young dog or pup realizes there is strength in numbers , hence the real reason for line/group /circle agitation : emotional and pack support.
In likeness of a group agitation , if need be, the adult dogs can supply pack support to my puppy .If my pup wants to bite , then I use the adult dogs who are ready, willing and able to pursue and bite - the pups knows this. The pup realizes : ' pup if you don't bite /get the rag , another will. Same notion as if it were food- pup if you don't eat the treat then the other dogs will.
I could very easily back tie the adults and have them turn on , but they are placed in a platz to give the pup a chance, to exhibit it's own capabilitites and desires.
And is it not better to have a puppy that has such intenisty and concentration ,who also needs to be taught self control to work and see the adults express self control , calmness . How much better a puppy to see that from the other dogs? Not to mention that the puppy learns that nothing , not even the adult dogs whether they are animated or not , is impotant when it comes to do what it has to do.
Not to mention my dogs in a platz want to platz more than I want them to . They know by controlling themselves, that self control brings them to their goal. Very simple susie , they learn that after the pup has done it's work they all get a bite. Don't mistake patience and self control for being over controlling. You have no idea that motivation and obedience become one and the same . Not even a an issue to me about balance . One does not offset the other but they add to each other. You won't understand this . . IMOp the issue is more about being.. a dog being what it is. I don't control my dog in the conventional sense . My control is by teaching my dogs to control themelves foremost and that never ever kills their motivation when taught correctly.
You don't fully , I restate that , fully understand control as opposed to self control , obedience , or motivation .I get the sense from your posts that you are stuck in ol' school categoricals and opinionated by ol' school terminology.