Just another Sport Dog - Page 28

BW, your example about dog that bites hard but is started on suit, when worked on sleeve often may not reflect full grip is right. Yet, many people who see that dog on video immediately comment on the grip and usually in negative fashion. There are many dogs that have full grips, and full hard grips, but lack fight( at least enough fight for me to feel comfortable in LE work) .
Yes, it's true that the method of training and tools can develop fight in some dogs, but many dogs today just don't have that fight no matter the type of training. I've seen it too many times, though they have nice grips.
It still comes down to being able to develop what the dog has genetically for the task at hand.

i have personally experienced many dogs with good grips naturally with fight and without fight, likewise I have experienced many dogs with less than full grips but good fight and more so less than full grips because of nerve/softness......so at end of day, it still must be on case by case basis for me.....always in person to really understand the potential of the dog.

quite a few of those around Joan LOL

Haha, yes, indeed, Duke. I casrated the one I had, didn't keep anything from him.

@ gustav, we call those handbags, full grip but thats it, also most of these dogs will loose the grip when put under some pressure, pushed in between the helper and a wall will do it for many of them, agree with BW that training can push up the level of pressure a dog can take, but my problem with that is that most of times those dogs only handle the type of pressure that is trained, well, new forms of pressure will be a challenge again

Joan, I know the dog you are talking about, he did produce wonderful grips, but he was not my cup of tea. If he's dog I think you mean, he was world class sport dog, but not my preference.

@ Duke....Exactly! And this ( scenario past or different from training) is where you will see those grips diminish unless the dog has true fighting spirit. I've seen it countless times....again that is why in LE the fight spirit is a higher priority than say the full grip, although in sport without the full grip you are losing 6-8 points every trial. And I truly like a full grip, but the mindset of dog is far more important to me.
That's why I look for hard grip under varying conditions......3/4 or full but has to be hard and willing to increase as the stress increases.

Yep.. Gustav, unfortunately, not till I imported him and got my hands on him, could I have known that about him.

Now, if I had known you, or duke back in those days, I might have been able to find out. But secrets are held tight by some owners ;)

Duke, I agree with what you stated about 'trained' tolerance for pressure. I've seen it done even for sport, heck, we had to do that with my show line for sch.
One thing about not having a training decoy, lol, bringing out untrained dogs to unrehearsed session with decoys, allows them to show their true self, instead of practiced reactions.

Yes Joan ,
But in protection work ... If I was bit I would rather be bit with the bite in the front than have my arm full in the dog's mouth ....
lt me tell you . When I first learned to train State Police dogs the only piece of equipment I had was a Sch sleeve. Wore jeans and a tank top on that summer day . So the officer , first day working on an imported GS was to have me flee and then at a point felease the dog. I ran with my back facing him straight and he accidently let go of the leash . I caught a glimpse in my peripheral vision but couldn't have the time to turn around and present the target. As I turned the dog came up on my butt and bit me . From back injury which left my quarter side numb ,I saw blood on my jeans and then i realized that I had been bit. Thank God, he bit with his front teeth ,his canine pierced through the jeans, the rest of the bite landed on wallet in my back pocket. This was fortunate for me ... but not such a great bite for a police dog , now was it ? BTW , the officer was at fault , but when we learned .. if we did not learn and execute in helper work .. we paid a price dearly . Off topic... believe me .. you learn quicky and in abundance about protection work and canines . So I end hear about full bites.. You want a dog that bites like a chicken, ok that is your perogative. But I learned a lesson that day : what not to get for a dog either for sport or LE.

the germans that buy policedogs from me all test them with a plastic jerrycan with some rocks in it, presented AFTER the dog has full grip to the sleeve, I allways say that it is a trainable test,same with stairs etc, if a dog doesnot want to go up my stairs, I can train him to do so easily on my stairs, still doesnot mean he will go up any stairs he might run into in the future

Centurian, I don't think the value of a full grip would ever be debated. It’s definitely important. But the fact is, there are not enough dogs that possess the “full package” of a full grip and environmental stability to fill the demand from police and military all over the world, so something has to give and environmental nerve is way more important than the type of grip the dog has. A bite is a bite and will hurt no matter what…it’s why most successful breeders don’t mess around with grip and only breed the dogs that do have a full grip. As was discussed before…some dogs need help developing a full grip, others have it naturally, and some dogs can easily have a grip ruined by poor helper work. A developed grip will not stay full when enough pressure is applied or the dog is stressed beyond what it is comfortable with.

Grip in a green dog, will tell you everything you need to know about the dog’s genetic ability and also how they can deal with pressure. A weak grip gives me all the insight I need about a dog, especially one with minimal training. It’s one thing that today we are able to develop the grips of young dogs from the time they’re done teething until the time they’re trialing…but if you present me an older dog, one that is mature, and I need to work to develop a full grip, especially in the presence of light pressure…there’s no hiding what that dog is.

 

Developing a full grip is equivelant to training a dog to handle environmental pressures or objects...it's all contextual. The grip will be full on this helper, in this situation, on this day, but you ask the dog to do it in a strange place...you'll see the results. With all the ragging on IPO...take a look at dogs at the national level and above...dogs that don't get the chance to work on the helpers or see the field before hand...see how those dogs deal with pressure and change. You'll see plenty of dogs that fall off the cliff points wise and show their true selves at those levels. Dogs that received 270+ or even V scores accross the board at their club trial with their trianing helper, will walk off a national field and barely break 240. The good ones...their grip stays full, their performance doesn't drop off.