Just another Sport Dog - Page 27

BM you really show you know nothink about LE first, you are making stupid assumptions second and third you twist words around to be snarly,

nowhere do I write my customers dont care about crappy half grips, I say they dont need or want full calm grips on a dog as long as he is willing to fight and engage without equipment

the dog in your video, by IPO standarts also doesnot have a calm grip, is rebiting multiple times, nothing wrong with that, as I write in my post you are shitting about, does  that dog have a crappy half grip, also it is a prey only bite, doesnot mean that dog will engage without being triggered by equipment

.... nevermind

It would be an interesting test to see how many dogs with what is considered a full/calm grip would come off that grip in a true fight and regrip. It would also be interesting to see the difference in the dog if it were raised/trained differently with a different focus. The “true fight” that people talk about in real life is way different than anything that can really be simulated in training…it’s basically impossible with a sleeve/stick and although close, still not really the same with a Michelin man suit.

In IPO…we value the calm grip because the judging dictates that we need to. The same reasoning that got my dog called a “robot” and a “miserable tool” due to how he tracks, is the same reason that he has a full, hard, calm grip. Well…the main reason he has that grip is genetic, but that grip was also reinforced and not played with because the goal is to score points. The dog has had hidden sleeve bites, he’s done aggression work, but we never tested how he would do in a more “real” situation because his life will never call for it. When his training has always been revolved around that type of grip, it’s crazy to expect him to do anything but that, and I’ll never truly know how he’d react in a fight with flailing limbs because he’ll never be put in that situation…but had he been trained for that type of situation, I think it’s safe to assume the outcome of the grip would be different.

I’ve seen dogs that were sold as “aggressive” and “not safe to slip the sleeve with” who were then made safe by different training. In a few short months, without constant helper agitation and the expectation of a dog to spit a sleeve and come back for more fight…the dog quickly figured out to carry and calm down. What did this show me? Training, training, training. It’s not a stretch to assume the same can be done with a grip…on purpose or not. And yes, there are always dogs that break the mold and can’t be taught one or the other…but they’re very few and far in between.

BW, agree with you on the question of how many full grip dogs do under pressure

 where you write training training training, I agree in many cases, also has to do with triggers,

there is a very nice sportdog I sold,

i think you know him, after out on the sleeve his rebite went to hand with whip, dont know if owner worked with you on that or other helper,

when here I just told helper to hide hand with whip behind back at first and the dog went clean on sleeve first training, he scored top points in IPO 1 and real good as well in two, think plan is to go to nationals as well

so training cleaned that up butcan also say trigger to bite hand with whip is non active now by shaping,

https://youtu.be/WQTsJycre3E

.

BE yes .. ' you cannot make a dog what it is not ' . And that coincides what I wrote previously .That for many people , the bite is an expression or relfection of temperament and character. BW.. nice comment .. how many times I have seen poor trainig whereby the dog has become frantic , crazed , and that hecticness is transferred right into the biting !! I am one of those that wonder about the things that you have brought to light too. 

 I am adressing when a dog has the aptitude to bite optmially but in the teaching it is not brought into fruition. That is to say , letting the dog get away with poorly biting or not bringing out the potential . Remember with every expressed behavior , even if it is an automatic response / an innate predisposed genetically , there is to some degree an environmental / experience /learning affect. So , therefore , what you write is correct , on that notion to : a dog can have a great bite but can the dog biting can be utterly ruined ! Your comment , well taken but some dogs can also be improved in the biting by showing them that a certain manner of biting is more toward their goal.

Case in point with Jo's dog ... a couple of times I see the helper not have the dog bite optimally and then when biting , the grip should have been better. The way I had seen the interaction between dog /helper ... this was not a function of the dog's ability , but the poor helper work. THAT is why I discuss bite philosophically. some dogs are like sharks , some not.. we know allmdogs are different. But IMOp , that is not excuse of bringing out the best in the dog.

Now , I pose a question : if a dog does not bite optimally , and keep in mind this relates to several factors, should this dog be bred and should this dog even be perfroming that job [ bite work] ?  Can it work , perhaps , should it work and possibly be bred ..... ? You all answer that for yourselves ..

     But to be fair , I will share my answer and expectation . I dont believe in settling for mediocrity in life. My dogs for sport I expect to bite hard , fast , full , gripping like a vice and poised ***  [ call it calm , I call it a sound , thinking confident well adjusted K9 ] . I accept nothing less. Ditto for police K9s. If they did not , then IMOp they weren't up for the task and they arenot what IMOp a GSD should be [ I expect mals to be a little impulsive not GSs].. And that is ok with me if they weren't what I expected .Keep in mnd however , I never ever ever ever sold any of my dogs in life because they didn't meet my expectations . They were cared for and loved just as the dogs I did sport etc with . I accepted them for what they were or were not.
There is an expression in life ; " to thine own self be true'. If I don't see a dog bite hard and full or as BE stated doesn't have the potential and bites 3/4 , I have to be truthful to myself and the dog.

That’s exactly it duke, and how many triggers are taught/trained? The dog in the video has a very solid grip…why did he go after the stick hand? Who knows? Probably taught for whatever reason, or maybe the dog took a go at it once and the helper responded in a natural way (getting bit on the hand) and the dog realized he can win by biting there? If the dog is able to be taught to not do it…it’s pretty certain that it’s not a “natural behavior.”

So a dog brought up to bite a suit…a dog with the end goal being police work…even when that grip might genetically be full/calm…what happens when the dog is constantly rewarded and praised for re-gripping or moving around the body in a fight? The grip will for sure not stay full/calm…the dog will learn that a different behavior will get him/her the desired outcome.

We discuss drives on this forum a lot…a major component of defense/fight is survival, or in the case of prey/fight it’s about fighting the prey to eat. Strong dogs, are very hard to “fake” the fight with. Good trainers have learned how to teach a dog what people today perceive as “fighting behavior” from a canine…mostly through reward and not through actually making the dog feel like it needs to fight for survival or a meal. It’s almost comical to me to watch videos of “decoys fighting dogs” because none of them are ever in danger. Not the dog, nor the human. It is never a fight to the death as it would be in a real scenario. People will post videos of a dog hanging off one arm of a suit while the helper fake punches the dog with the other…that’s not what I would be doing if a dog was ACTUALLY hanging off my arm…and the pressure and REAL PAIN on the dog would be much greater. So anyone questioning a full/calm bite on a suit or a sleeve…still can’t know how the dog would react if there was truly a fight. Like I said earlier, my dog has had hidden sleeve work. The bite was full, hard, and calm on the helper’s forearm. The dog didn’t feel the need to move around or come off because even with the lack of equipment, the helper didn’t put the dog in a place where the dog felt in danger. Genetic grip, and the grip he’s been rewarded for was what won out.

Here's a green dog, green helper ( who does have the passion to learn, lives and breaths dogs) . 'fake punching' were blows to the dog's side, kneeing and walking over the dog, but the dog came back for more. Having never seen a 'suit' before, the dog was not 'triggered', but the elite on here probably will be...lol.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v6hsl50znh4ry11/VIDEO0255.mp4?dl=0

centurion asks, if a dogs doesnot bite optimally, should we breed him,

why not, most famous workingline in germany comes from a dog that would be shot and killed by most of you (so to speak) over his grip

https://youtu.be/x1qsauHAA5E

 

The forward half of the dog's mouth is for causing damage....that's why carnivores have CANINE teeth, to damage and kill with. The back of the canids' mouth has the carnassials which are molars evolved for shearing off chunks of meat to swallow while feeding off the carcass that was killed with the cainine teeth.

Denying breeding a dog just because of a forward grip as with Fero, is throwing out the baby with the bath water. Pretty sure that dog's bite would draw blood and screams of pain.

I had a dog that had genetic full grips which he passed on to most of his progeny, a fairly famous dog. But what I didn't know till i owned him,and what the rest of the dog world probably did not know, was that the dog was fearful of open stairs, and atv's and hogs in a pasture....but he put the sacred 'full grip' on his progeny...plus thunderstorm fear in a couple I heard about.