USCA Sieger Show - Page 11

Pedigree Database

High Drive Malinois - 9 Months Old
Male for sale

Accepting Deposits -DAM- Daughter of VA1 Gary Vom
Puppies for sale

Outstanding WGSL Longcoat puppies
Puppies for sale

by GSD911 on 11 May 2017 - 20:05

I think there will always be those at the bottom and those at the top.

The challenge is twofold: how to educate the difference, and how to get people to care.

Two very tough challenges to expect from the average pet buyer.

The fact of the matter is most people just don't care to the extent of those of us posting on this thread, so if nothing else we get to buy dogs from each other. :-)

by Bavarian Wagon on 11 May 2017 - 21:05

I can promise you it's not that easy to figure it out unless you're matter how much reading and asking you do...the majority of the information you get, is going to be biased and subjective. A breeder that is looking to sell you a puppy for $2000 isn't about to admit they're taking short cuts and charging slightly below the market value of a "fully proven" breeding so that they attract buyers like yourself. Breeder "mentors" RARELY tell their understudies the truth…they just teach them the game and the process starts all over again.

Those actually trying to improve the breed, proving their stock, investing hundreds if not thousands of hours or dollars into proving their dogs…aren’t about to ask for lower prices “just because” they want to help readjust the market. If a breeding between two dogs with BHs is asking/getting $2000 a puppy, you’re damn right I’m going to ask more for the breeding of the two dogs with IPO3s I’m throwing together. Problem…at some point we’ll out price our market or the people that could actually help prove our dogs…so we’re stuck asking the same $2000. Eventually…those people stop “proving” their dogs as well and just join the pack…I’ve seen it happen to dozens of breeders that used to do it right.

Another huge hurdle in America…if you’re charging less, there must be something wrong with it…good luck getting past that one. I’m sure tons of buyers will understand the reason you’re leaving thousands of dollars on the table is because “you care about the breed.”

by Bavarian Wagon on 11 May 2017 - 21:05

In an environment where breeders are able to convince buyers that "champion pointed" is the same or better than a "V" rating or that a RN combined with a lure coursing and dock diving title are equal to an IPO title...too many people are going to go the easy route and not shell out thousands of dollars or hours in order to fight a losing battle.

by GSD911 on 11 May 2017 - 21:05

That's just plain sad. I think maybe when and if I breed, I might give money back on a dog someone titles in IPO.
Just a thought.

by Bavarian Wagon on 11 May 2017 - 21:05

Incentives are an idea, but it’s still not enough. If a few years ago an IPO title, show rating, etc could get you a good $1000 above the price of puppy that is out of lesser titled or none at all parents…you’re talking $8000-$10000 more per litter, today the prices have almost equalized and those putting in the work have borderline been priced out of the market. Titling/showing used to come with a reward of a huge profit margin that only grew with each litter (once the titling/showing is done, there are minimal costs). If a pup out of titled WL parents used to be $1500, and one out of untitled WL parents was $700, over 4-5 litters that’s a difference of $32000…it was worth the $5000 initial investment to reap the reward. Today…the reward is minimal, you’re lucky to push your price to $200 over what an untiled breeding pair is getting…and it won’t change, the whole system is run by people that know it and prefer to do it the easy way and reap their rewards. It used to be worth it to train, trial, compete, campaign, etc. Today…the easy routes look just as good to buyers as the hard routes. There are hundreds of people all over the internet telling people that sport is sport and the few bites their dog has done in the back yard is better than anything. The information is extremely conflicting and it’s almost impossible for new people to figure out the difference between two breeders. Training videos and pictures are more important and look just as impressive to the average buyer…and the breeders know it, and use it to their advantage to increase their profits without putting in the proper work.

And with all see the downfall of local/regional/national trials and events. They're not useful to people. Easier to make a post on facebook than to train for months and then shell out the money to trial/show your dog. Why spend that extra $1000-$2000 on that event across the country if it's not going to actually pay off in the end.


To those that might not like to think of this in monetary terms...sorry, but it's the cold hard truth. The more a breeder can make with a litter, the more they can invest back into their program and inevitably the breed. Want people bringing new studs/new blood over to this country? They need to have the money to do so. Love of the breed only goes so far when all you have to tell someone is "I've done it for years, I know exactly what I'm looking for." If that line is all it takes...the whole system fails.

by vk4gsd on 11 May 2017 - 21:05

I wouldn't give it all back. I would charge top price and withhold a fixed amount and use it to give rewards back to the buyer for getting hip /health work done when they supply vet receipts, also have a rewards for uploading videos of pup on my breeder website as pup develops + rewards for any titles put on the dog in any venue. Higher titles = more rewards.

Breeding dogs would prolly cost me money. Still I would only buy from a financially well off breeder who's main income was not from selling puppies.

by GSD911 on 11 May 2017 - 22:05

I think there isn't anything wrong with making money. BUT, and here's the but, not at the expense of the breed. I like to sleep at night.

VK, I get why you feel a well off breeder may be better, but I don't discount the idea that someone who was lucky enough to start off with the right dog(s) and stayed with it and worked it couldn't have some really great results. The other side of the coin is that the well off breeder probably couldn't care less about your dog once it leaves their kennel.

I know people whose dogs get the best of everything even though they themselves live in a trailer. Would it be fair to discount their dedication just due to their financial position in life?
Not sure about that, but I understand your thoughts.

by vk4gsd on 12 May 2017 - 03:05

Good point, I think I meant that breeder that isn't relying on puppy sales to pay the rent will be less inclined to drop their standards to shift product and more likely to breed as a benefactor of the breed.

But ya a poor person can certainly do the same.

by Bavarian Wagon on 12 May 2017 - 13:05

Truthfully…that’s a crazy expectation. The only way to do this right and to do it consistently is to have it be your full time job. It’s a lot to ask of someone to have a different job and also train/title/show all their dogs. In order to have a program you need multiple females available in order to try different combinations. A certain amount of financial independence helps, but a more knowledgeable customer base is what would really fix the issues. Breeders wouldn’t be able to throw crap out there and still sell it at a decent price. If the general public was even a little more informed and were a bit more like police departments or trainers…a breeder that puts out a more than acceptable amount of duds would not be able to continue to breed and sell. The product is what should sell itself, not words and sales tactics. Currently, there are no negative repercussions for most breeders in the United States if they’re just consistently putting out dogs that aren’t capable of anything. They still sell at a price which provides a very good profit margin no matter what they’re putting out there.

by susie on 12 May 2017 - 17:05

Bav, there is almost no German SV breeder able to live from "puppy sales". As soon as a breeder follows SV rules, breeding takes money, but never makes money. GSD breeders do have a regular job to be able to breed.

Puppies out of untested, unshown, untrialed parents go for € 200 - € 400, most often for free.

Over here nobody will buy a 8 weeks old puppy out of SV dogs for more than € 1000, € 600 - € 800 is normal, a lot are given away for way less ( sometimes for free ) to club members, some become co-owns ( no money, but costs ), and there is almost always a keeper...

It´s not about the puppies, it´s about the adult trained/titled dogs, the ones that proofed themselves, either on the field or in the show ring, in the best case in both.
It´s about stud fees, and the sale of high rated dogs, but never about puppies...

One year old, no health certs? No money
2 years old, not titled, just a "normal" GSD? No money
A showline, never been on the Siegershow, or somewhere in the middle or at the end? No money
A working line, no proof of working ability, just "normal" performance? No money

No money = either puppy price, or given away for free, but raised, fed, and vet cared for months/years

Over here people pay for prooven success, not for hope...

An IPO3, KKL, HD/ED normal, SG or V rated male has to perform very well ( IPO or show ), otherwise he will get ZERO breedings, too many better dogs out there, nothing "special".

Interestingly the kind of dogs I listed above become worthful as soon as they left the country...

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