If you had a Magic Wand.... - Page 29

It’s always going to be a constant game of trying to make accomplishments sound amazing and higher/better than they truly are. Without…and probably with, a minimum standard, people are constantly going to be trying to prove that what they accomplish with their dog is better or even equal to someone else’s accomplishment to try to prove their dog is equal or better…even people not looking to breed their dogs. Without a standard…it just ends up being a bigger mess than it would be with one. It’s a game of giving enough information that people notice it and think that it’s something more amazing that it actually is and leaving out the pertinent information that would give them some ability to look into what the accomplishment is and how to rate it against other accomplishments out there. Everyone knows it happens, everyone makes fun of people that do it, and they also do it themselves, but no one ever really comes out and tells the newbies or the people that don’t know anything that it occurs…let’s admit it, the last thing most breeders want to do is call out the system and make enemies with someone that might some day send a sale their way.

Schutzhund is hard to get to in my country…so my AKC Rally Novice title is just as amazing and proves just as much about my dog as that 3 phase title someone else got. My dog got a rally novice, if I had the time, money, trainers near by, blah blah blah, it would definitely be titled in IPO. Therefore the dog is an excellent working dog and should be bred.

Due to the bottom dwelling breeders in this country (USA)…your puppy mills, non-health testers, do nothing but breed their family pets people…anyone that does anything above that is considered excellent. Any kind of lettering after the dog’s name is considered equal in the eyes of 99% of consumers. Breeders of lines that have no proven working ability in generations telling their customers that with enough time and effort even they can title in some of the more difficult sports where temperament and nerve strength are a necessity and can’t just be “trained” to get through things.

Also…for me I’m not afraid to take a risk on a person. I know my dogs can be good pets and don’t *NEED* IPO or whatever else to live. From what I’ve seen at my IPO club, is that the dog is usually what prevents someone from going further with their dog sport goals. More often than not, someone interested in training/trialing, gets a dog from a breeder making working claims, and when they finally test the dog, it’s not capable of anything. In the United States…most of the time those puppies aren’t bred from parents or even grandparents with titles. Truth be told…the puppies/young dogs I’ve dealt with that come from parents with at least some level of titling…have had a much higher rate of success in regards to at least club level work.

Pete asked for a defination of "pet"... I distinguish between pet dog breeds and working dog breeds.

( For me ) a pet dog breed is a breed that is not known for genetically strenghtened working abilities, a breed that doesn´t need to work for its food, and no owner awaits "miracles" of a dog out of this breed.

These dogs are bred and bought for people to feel good, to help against loneliness, to make the owners feel beloved, and so on, but they are not bought/bred with the intention to do a job, be it hunting, guarding, pulling a sled, or something else.

Working dog breeds ( in the best case ) are bred and bought because breeders and owners want to train their dogs, be it in the "real" world, or be it in sport.
Within the working dog breeds there are major differences in case of gentical working abilities ( hunting, guarding, pulling a.s.o. ) - that said potential buyers should be aware of the genetic temperament and character of the breed they are interested in.

All breeds should be able to be companion dogs, able to fulfill the "pet part", but the working dog breeds should be able to work according to their breed standard ( in case of the German Shepherd Dog be able to survive at least a breed survey - I said "breed survey", not IPO on purpose, because you don´t need to necessarily title in IPO - RH2, being an active police dog, or HGH is fine, too ).

There are people out there willing to deal with the temperament of working dog breeds, active, interested people, they will be able to educate their dogs ( no matter if they are experienced dog owners or newbies ), they will be able to love, and respect the "working dog temperament" -
on the other hand there are the classic pet owners, they don´t want to spend x hours/day with their dog, they don´t want to become actively involved in any kind of dog training ( even in case they told the breeder they would - the old difference between dream and reality ).

Right at that point breeders get into trouble - the suitable homes for working dog breeds are pretty rare because most people are interested in pets, not in working dogs -
shall a breeder quit breeding a working dog breed, or shall he start to select calm, easy going dogs out of his breeding stock to satisfy the market?

I thought about this dilemma a lot - for me there is only one solution: As soon as a breeder isn´t able to sell puppies behaving according to their initial temperament any more, he should quit breeding this breed.

A breed doesn´t need to be fancy, a breed doesn´t need to sell well - a breed needs to be able to fulfill it´s original goal.

Susie, EXCEPT the GSD breed is supposed to be calm. A change in training techniques has changed the old GSD into a high energy, high prey animal not necessarily a courages poised animal. Quote, from the SV Standard : "The German Shepherd Dog must be, in its essential image, well-balanced, firm in nerves, self-confident, absolutely calm and impartial, and (except in tempting situations) amiable. He must possess courage, willingness to fight, and hardness, in order to be suitable as companion, watchdog, protector, service dog, and guardian."



The GSD is supposed to be a great family companion, AND also be able to herd, protect or whatever else is required of it. It should have courage and fight drive but not be an aggressive child eating, wrangy monster.

So, really a pet dog is a dog with floppy ears, light coloured eyes, no courage, high energy??, poor nerved, or more plainly put - a dog that does NOT meet the standard thus should be culled from breeding and priced accordingly. Any dog that meets the standard should be breeding quality.
Can you tell a good dog without taking it to IPO or schutzhund? I personally believe you can, for anyone that works with their dog, I believe it can be done. I've had GSD's for 30 plus years, and the best one came from untitled parents, one dog out of quite a few, have matched the Standard Temperament exactly along with super structure. Still sad I never bred him.
You may not think I know a good GSD when I see one, and that is your prerogative, and that is fine, because I know I can read a Standard, and after all of this time, I can read a dog.

On the whole, I've been very disappointed by most dogs I've had, expecting more from Schutzhund 3 titled dogs. It is obvious to me, dogs that are not worthy of breeding can be titled.

Geez for someone who can read dogs and the standard so well RS I am surprised you are so bad at selecting one for yourself.

"......

On the whole, I've been very disappointed by most dogs I've had, ....."

Red, there are several kinds of "calm" :

A dog may be calm because it

isn´t interested in any trouble
isn´t interested in any "work" ( whatever kind of )
isn´t interested in pack orders ( only wants to feel good, be part of the group )

or

because it is satisfied, because it is able to live according to its working dog genetics.

I said several times that for sure there are people able to "tell a good dog without taking it to IPO or schutzhund" - I said that IPO only is the BEGINNING, not the end of evaluation - we are talking about breeders neither willing nor knowing how to evaluate working dog breeds, but using the same terms in case of promoting their dogs...
The "normal" buyer will see no difference, he will see the same catchwords - how shall he distinguish?

I am not against pets, why should I ??? Why should pets have "floppy ears, light coloured eyes, no courage, high energy" ??? That´s nonsense. I like pets, although as long as I am able to work a working line dog, I don´t want to own one - just MY choice.

A pet should be a pet, whereas a working dog breed should be a working dog breed, able to be a pet, too, plain and simple.
There are homes for both of them - but why change a working dog breed into a pet breed?
Doesn´t make sense, is not good for the breed...

Red, I looked up the FCI standard for you - they don´t even translate any German terms into "calm"

Character
The German Shepherd Dog must be well-balanced (with strong nerves) in terms of character, self-assured,absolutely natural and (except for a stimulated situation) good-natured aswell as attentive and willing to please. He must possess instinctive behaviour, resilience and self-assurance in order to be suitable as a companion,guard, protection, service and herding dog.
 
Out of:

http://www.fci.be/Nomenclature/Standards/166g01-en.pdf 

page 3

 

The German original:

http://www.fci.be/Nomenclature/Standards/166g01-de.pdf

page 3, too.

red,

"Quote, from the SV Standard : "The German Shepherd Dog must be, in its essential image, well-balanced, firm in nerves, self-confident, absolutely calm and impartial, and (except in tempting situations) amiable. He must possess courage, willingness to fight, and hardness, in order to be suitable as companion, watchdog, protector, service dog, and guardian."

this is not the SV standard for the GSD. this is:

Wesen:
Der Deutsche Schäferhund muss vom Wesensbild her ausgeglichen, nervenfest, selbstsicher, absolut unbefangen und ( außerhalb einer Reizlage ) gutartig sein, dazu aufmerksam und führig.

Er muss Mut, Kampftrieb und Härte besitzen, um als Begleit - ,Wach - , Schutz- , Dienst - , und Hütehund geeignet sein.

nowhere it say that gsd need be calm and nowhere it say to be suiting as companion dog. begleithund not translate to companion or pet dog as you make use of and BH is minimum for dog to pass to be considered begleihund. SV say very specific that GSD is working dog not couch pet in coma without button in ear.

Sometimes a working dog can function fully as a pet. My first introduction to a GSD was a grandson of the 72 Seiger Marko Vom Cellerland through his son Kai.

The dog lived with a family as a very calm pet indoors. The dog did not have any formal training , but he was a STUNNING NATURAL. His hunt drive was crazy ; my fiend would throw a dime into the thickets and the dog would go completely beserk searching for that coin, and he would not stop unless called back ( being quite clear headed ). He was always aloof to strangers and always stood between the stranger and his owner, not wanting to make friends but looking on with utter seriousness . If you made a funny move his ear was immediately alert, and you know he was on to something. He would even let you into his owner's house, but you could not leave on your own ; he would literally push you back into the house , until the owner or a family member allowed your exit. While in his home you could not shout or flail your arms , because he would become alert. All the time he was off leash.Very nice dog , and bred in England.

Very very different temparament from the dog I have now, who accepts no strangers; not even aloof, she simply does not want them there.

Thank you, Fring, we posted at the same time...

RS are you actually saying that breeding FOR sport or show can alter the temperament of the breed. These dogs are titled and therefore are breedworthy.....I've learned this on this forum....any of them are superior to your untitled dog regardless if it appears to you their temperament is lacking......because I also learned if you don't title to national level you really can't know a good dog when you see it. It's just your inflated opinion.