I like Clint Eastwood but... - Page 11

Taxes Well if Government does it then all is OK. When you would do it or when Mafia does it then that is theft, extortion ,... And so on.  

Esoteric.  No Susie you must read more carefully. I have said :" Let each on it's own decide to whom they give their money to. But that could be too esoteric concept here."

Welfare state is not esoteric welfare state is abomination if it is self promoting as we see it today.  

I read carefully...

You said: " Let each on it's own decide to whom they give their money to. But that could be too esoteric concept here."

You can´t decide about taxes - now you are fine in case "Government does it".
Not your decision...

On the other hand you describe todays welfare states as "abominations", but you pay for the system with your taxes.

You can´t have it all...

About "abomination" - for me a welfare state is no "abomination", but the dishonest, unethically people making use of it, whereas a lot of people who really need help, are too proud to ask for it.

Humans are able to undermine every "system"...

The Founders believed in no taxation without representation not no taxes or, you get to pick and choose which taxes you pay.

Susie. I am paying taxes  imposed on me by government in order to keep jack booted thugs with guns away from my house. And AGAIN you read my post wrong . I have not say give "taxes" I have said give "money" voluntarily to where needed. Like buying government bonds of just donating money to worthwhile cause. I know I am naive. Nevertheless in USA the federal income tax was enacted in 1913, and corporate income taxes were enacted slightly earlier, in 1909. After that it was down the hill as far as taxes goes. The 1920s and \'30s saw the creation of multiple taxes. Sales taxes were enacted first in West Virginia in 1921, then in 11 more states in 1933 and 18 more states by 1940. As of 2010, Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire and Oregon are the only states without a sales tax. Seven U.S. states currently don't have an income tax: Alaska, Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Texas, Washington and Wyoming. And residents of New Hampshire and Tennessee are also spared from handing over an extra chunk of their paycheck on April 15, though they do pay tax on dividends and income from investments. President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed the Social Security Act in 1935 and Social Security taxes were first collected in January 1937, although no benefits were paid until January 1940. And on and on. More here: http://www.investopedia.com/articles/tax/10/history-taxes.asp

Before 2013 the federal government managed its few constitutional responsibilities without an income tax, except during the Civil War period. During peacetime, it did so largely — or even entirely — on import taxes called “tariffs.” Congress could afford to run the federal government on tariffs alone because federal responsibilities did not include welfare programs, agricultural subsidies, or social insurance programs like Social Security or Medicare.

I am not against paying taxes on programs which benefit all or me.  I am against wasting money on programs which are designed as a payment for voters  who  are virtually voting themselves more and more benefits - needed or not.  If government same as I or you do,  would  spend by it's means   then there would not be need for personal income tax. Some states named above manage same thing and US managed it before 2013. 

Prager  says "If Governments spend by their means then there would not be a need for personal income tax".

Where do you think "their means" comes, or should come, from ?  They would not even get enough to run an Army and a Police Force if they ONLY relied on the corporate taxes they manage to squeeze out of companies who spend half their time dodging their tax liabilities, hiding money away in Swiss and offshore accounts, yada yada yada ... and wouldn't the bosses of those global Corporations soon scream "unfair" if PERSONAL taxes were abolished, whatever the money was used to fund ?

" I am paying taxes imposed on me by government in order to keep jack booted thugs with guns away from my house."
You pay taxes ( = pay MONEY ) for streets, hospitals, schools, welfare, fireworkers, policemen, kindergardens, the Army, some wars, Veteranss later on .........

You pay taxes when drinking a beer, smoking a cigarette, refueling your car, owning a property,...............

all of this used for streets, hospitals, schools, welfare, fireworkers, policemen, kindergardens, the Army, some wars, Veterans later on .........

You ( and everybody else ) has to pay for all of it, not only "to keep jack booted thugs with guns away from my house."

Humans as a whole are not willing to pay taxes ( again, that´s money ), but during the same time they ask for nice highways, good hospitals, schools, police, and so on...

In case you don´t like to give money to anything besides the police officer from your neighbourhood you

1. have to quit your job
2. sell your property
3. sell your car(s)
4. give away all your money
5. live on the street
6. stop to drink or smoke ( in case you do )
7. stop to buy anything at all

But in this case you should be proud enough to not ask for any help or medical treatment in case you become sick or helpless ...

I like Welfare States - till today I never had to make use of it, I always paid, but I really like the idea, just because I know shit happens.

Prager said, "I am not against paying taxes on programs which benefit all or me. I am against wasting money on programs which are designed as a payment for voters who are virtually voting themselves more and more benefits - needed or not."

I note some incongruity there as well as a sense of entitlement.

Hundmutter where did the "Means" came from before the taxes were made permanent in USA in 1913. I would love to go to pre 1913 tax model. Where do the money come from in states where there are no personal income taxes?

We would need to go to a pre 1913 military budget.

Ofcourse GDP also multiplied thus there would be plenty of money.