Just having fun with the puppy - Page 3

Apple: Civil behaviors at 16 weeks? Civil aggression simply means the dog will bite a person not wearing equipment. If you are seeing a 16 week old puppy showing aggression indicating he wants to bite someone, you are seeing an overly defensive dog that is insecure.

Can someone tell me who to blame for this rotten misuse of "civil" who first coined this?  

Im guessing that last sentance is more of a sport background concept? A dog that goes into defense then into fight drive in attack is weak, exactly how?

Thanks for that post Koots some nice pearls in there.

TY Koots!

I think people use civil and defense as the same words.  

I just slightly edited my entry, as I remembered something that I wanted to point out.

many sport people are brought up with the concept that sharp/civil dogs are insecure, and prey dogs are stable strong dogs

this couldnot be further from the truth

all elements which buildup caracter of dog are separate elements, and dogs can be civil AND have courage, same as dogs can have high prey and be insecure or unstable, one doesnot include or rule out the other

here is young dog of mine, with a friend in holland in KNPV now, at 7 months, its pup from topic "working pup towards prey in agression "

he was overly civil as a pup, we trained him in prey only(damned sportism LOL)

https://youtu.be/-wIZo8kzUjg

I know we are off topic now, but I always wondered about the context of the word "civil", as it is used on this board.

For me a "civil" dog is a dog willing to bite a person, not out of prey, but out of social aggression ( action ).Not only defense, but active attack, too, a lot of them are very stable, but not made for everybody.

I always wondered about statements like "it doesn´t matter if the dog bites out of prey or out of defense, as long as the dog is willing to bite the BG, it´s called "civil".

I don´t think so, a dog willing to bite the bad guy because as a result of training the BG "became" the prey is not "civil" but a dog well trained to bite the prey. Might be very effective, but not "civil" - I might be wrong.

On the other hand "defense" for me implicates a dog willing to "defend", but not necessarily willing to attack ( kind of REACTION ), even week dogs are able to show defense when in fear of their life, but they won´t follow and apprehend the BG - I might be wrong, too.

"Prey" - Duke already said it, the prey drive doesn´t guarantee a stable, secure dog, it only guarantees "prey drive", everything else depends on the dog in question ( I am sure about this part ).

Most often the high prey drive will help the dog to override temperament faults, that said the dog is still able "to function" - out of this reason a lot of trainers, be it "sport" trainers or "real life" trainers like the prey drive.

Once again Duke: "...all elements which buildup caracter of dog are separate elements..." YES

and it´s up to us to make use of ALL elements genetically presented in a dog ( and to override unwished behavior with stronger drives according to our goals).

I pretty much agree with Susie's definition. I would add that primarily working out of prey or defense although Susie probably meant that but did not add it. The balance is important from a training aspect (not balanced training but a balanced dog or working towards that.end)

Duke what is  the dog on the last video trained for?

There can be conducted extensive philosophical analysis of definition of what is civil dog. I am sure that there may have different way to look at it. Here is how I look at it. My explanation  deals only with sound dogs.  Civil dog is a sound dog which bites a man without esquipment . Why he does it is not part of the description of the civil dog per se.  
To put it over lowest common denominator and to essencial of what "civil" is, then I will say that the term civil is a matter of targeting.
Civil means no uniform. In this case uniform of a decoy is equipment . If the dog targets equipment and is not able to target man then the dog is not civil. Firm targeting of equipment is association which for PP/LE dog is undesirable association. Association with equipment may be two fold 1/ and 2/ below. Sound dog targetting a man in prey or defense is civil.
1/ Dog is not civil if the dog will not bite anything else but equipment period.
2/ Dog will bite a man but prefers to bite equipment if present is between civil and not civil.
3/ civil dog is the one who prefers to bite a man rather then equipment and will even avoid equipment to get to the man.

The civil dog will target the man in prey and in defense exactly same way as equipment dog will target equipment except he targets man instead. The difference between civil and it's opposite - equipment dog is in targeting.
I would like to also say that dog which is civil is not necessarily reliable protection dog. Being civil is not enough. There are infinity of other associations which must not be present in order for the dog to be protection dog and dog being civil is only one such aspect.
Then there are types of dogs by genetics.
Type 1 is naturally - genetically predisposed dot\g which does not need any training in order to bite for real.
Type 2 is dog which is not genetically predisposed to bite for real But can be trained to do so.
Both dogs may be sound and sociable dogs. I am not anywhere in this post talking about unstable dogs.
JMO Prager Hans

In my experience, as someone who has owned various breeds of dogs, and who encountered many different breeds delivering newspapers, I don't think I've ever seen a type 2 dog. Any dog will bite given the right conditions.