Sportism - Page 22

Vk  really if you do not know enough on the topic then don't post I am tired of you making these asinine comments and ruining things for everyone else.

You may think that they are/you are cute it is not

You may not like another person here but manners and self control are a sign of being an adult.

Can you please clarify exactly what you mean.

Is it you think i don't know anything about dressage / steeplechase horses or I have got the same amount of IPO titles as Prager, ie none, yet he gets to make up words nobody else on the board in 22 pages can agree on and insult everyone who disagrees with him with baseless assertions and Bible quotes calling people swine.

What exactly is the specific problem you have with my posts so I can correct them?

You are not stupid we have been through this so many times

Be polite stay on topic  nothing we have not over and over asked of you.

You know what you are doing and only you know why.  I don't care, you are ruining it for others including myself. If you can't figure it out then don't post on threads or make your own thread and tell us your way of training and if you want different word for things be our guest 

GSDfan: I am equally as frustrated in having to "fix" dogs from defensive training programs as you are claiming to have to fix dogs from "sport" programs. Perhaps we are seeing the worst of each side or maybe dogs that are not capable of the work to begin with.

Duke: it is all in genetics, training is secondairy "GSD fan, in germany and czech, dogs need to be titled to be able to breed with them, that doesnot change their genetics or balance of drives, IMO, "

Before you have genetics or balance of drives you have what the breeding purpose was.

If someone bought a dog with the purpose of sitting on podium a winner then they should have bought bred over the top prey and little to no defense bred for sport. How is it surprising you would train in prey and defensive dogs are useless. 

If someone bought a dog for ppd then they should have bought a bred for balance or higher defensive drive. How is it surprising you would train more in defense and find prey dogs are useless. 

If all this fixing is going on, here is a thought tell the clients on the next dog they bring you to pull thier head out before the purchase. Get the dog bred for the goal. While theres spill over and much neccesary training, they are not the same dog. At the end of the day all the ism's, sport'ism, defensive'ism, police'ism, military'ism are about training difference's and use of the dog. Breeding is critically important.  If your fixing a bunch you bought a round when you needed a square peg. Not useless, wrong application.

When people blanket useless its best to add for your paticular goal. While theres no guarantee, hopefully the breeder had a design goal the purchaser SHOULD have followed suit. I dont buy all this balanced can do everything ala caca gsd. If it wasent lip service then a balanced dog can sit on podium they can not! If it was not lip service a podium dog will fight you under real pressure.  We talk balance and walk extreme. 

Gigante, I pretty much agree with you. Look I have seen titled or sport dogs that were hard, weak, and sporty.....but people today that breed FOR sport tend to breed for high prey dogs. Does that mean there are NO hard dogs in sport? Heck no! But the hard dog in sport is not the majority of sport dogs and the top ones tend to not be balanced in prey/defense. Why people have get their knickers in a bunch when that is said and then make asinine comments like " all sport dogs are prey monsters" OR when a sport dog is hard they comment" well I thought all sport dogs were prey monsters", trying to be facetious. Folks, nothing is absolute, I have seen Black and red Showline dogs as LE patrol dogs.....but I would not go to a litter of these dogs looking for a patrol dog. Sure, it's possible, but what is the most plausible when looking at show or sport dogs. Like Gigante said, I think it's important what is the purpose of what the breeder is breeding for!

@both Gigante and Gustav - voices of reason.

There are MANY FANTASTIC dogs who trancsend ALL disiplines, and ARE A MAJOR component in the back bone of the working GSD - Norbo, six times WUSV, who also had a day job.  (There are numerous PHENEMONAL WORKING DOGS, from DDR/ W German / Belgium / Dutch lines etc etc, who can compete on the training field and cut the mustard in ANY envirnoment).

There is no absolute, just like there is no one way to train, all we are EVER doing is hedging our bets, and hopefully getting the best out of the dog in front of us -  then the buck stops with us.

And lets not forget mother nature - she always has the last laugh.

Regards
Gee




 

Hans : First off all I do not understand why I should flatter myself if someone like you would go and read my forum. Maybe you should go and read it so that you actually undestand what I am saying. This format is not adequate to go into details so I understand that such training may be hard to understand when   presented in a incomplete and hap-hazzard  way on this venue.

GSDfan:" I believe it's unfair make a blanket accusation ("dogs with a sport foundation will always default to equipment preference") and say all sport foundation training is rotten, in spite of all the trainers who make that bridge correctly, and all qualified and successful Police dogs around the world from those programs...that alone disproves your theory IMO."

Hans: You see,.... here we go again, you are misrepresenting and actually misquoting what I have said   . This is what I have ACTUALLY said :"And since sportism  builds default on equipment such dog will prefer to target equipment for rest of his life." Nowhere have I said anything about "rotten"  not even synonymously . On top of it the fact that there is a default is completely omitted by you  even though it is known fact and even Armin Winkler and others talk about such concept. And nowhere have I said that sport dogs can not be retrained to be civil police dogs. You are just making this shit up as you go. FYI: I am not against dog who has sport foundation, as a matter of fact I am clearly discussing all over the place what I call parallel dog training where I am unequivocally telling people that the same dog can be civil and at the same time sport dog . However I am against civil dogs being trained from equipment ->to man which is what most sport and subsequently sport -ism does where ( in sport) such training is desirable in civil dog it is not. Thus  I am against  on purpose  developing sport dog or sport like dog, which is trained to target equipment from "day one" to civil dog in a "LINEAR WAY" in another words -  from equipment to man. Such transition as it is done then leaves us with not just "gaps " to be "bridged" as you are saying , but also with defaults which concept - as I have mentioned above you totally ignore.

Also little secret  here; there are non linear ways to train dog with sport background to be civil dog without such faulty defaults. I am getting sport dogs here from Europe for resale to LE and those dogs need to be retrained. Thus I do so. However it would be much better if the civil dogs would be trained like civil dogs from day one (oh what a revolutionaly concept lol!!!)  where they target a man from a get go, rather than to teach them to target the equipment and then teach them  not to do  just exactly that!!!!!!! But that is not how you or anyone else I know is doing it. As far as I know most do it same as Jerry Bradshaw describes it in his book Controlled aggression. ( I hope he'll thank me for the plug.) Heck I sometimes use that principal myself with some dogs. After all I am evolved dog trainer too. LOL

And than the fact that , which you make and it is this statement : " trainers who make that bridge correctly, and all  qualified and successful Police dogs around the world from those programs" - does not prove anything else what so ever  except what it says. That  does not mean that this is the best way to do it.

Yes for longest time people got away with belief that the earth is flat,.... that is until they evolved and found out tht it is not so. So maybe it is you who should evolve.  All  your statement above  proves   is that sport dogs can be with some extra effort trained by "bridging gaps" to be LE dogs  and I will add with some  permanent hang-ups . Where I am talking about eliminating such hang-ups by not creating these "gaps" as you call it.  Hang ups being that the dogs have default on equipment and I can prove it to you with just about any dog trained via sportism way from equipment to man. Yes I am dealing with such dogs all the time and am retraining them too. So what?!  I do not like to retrain other people's fuck ups by design while I know that there is a  better way to do it. Now you do not want to learn the way  I asm doing it and   that is perfectly peachy ducky with me. See if I care. Just do not misquote me. As far as "bridging the gap", you are talking about, I would say that I am    developing  a system while using my and  other trainers's knowledge and I am quite sure I have succeeded with system where there is no "gap" to be bridged.

GSDfan. : I agree perhaps saying that's how everyone else does it is not a good argument, but saying that's how I've always done it is worse. Dog training has evolved, get out of your backyard and take a look, enter your dogs in a PSA trial. I am glad you claim you are always open to learning, I hope that is true.

Hans. LOL!!!!!!!! Please stop patronizing me and demeaning me. Obviously you do not know me.  I have done PSA probably even before you   knew PSA exists I was a member from 2002 and I have trained it way before that.  I have known late Joe Morris (who created this sport with Jerry Bradshaw) who both judged me and my dogs in trials on several occasion. As a matter of fact I have here score book with number # 199 I was 2nd in open in PSA Nationals in few years back I think 2004 . And I have titled a dog or 2 in PSA. And I have trained in SchH for a while too. So get of your high horse with your snarky remarks about me getting out of my back yard and evolve.  BTW FYI: the reason I have participated and titled dogs in PSA is precisely to shut up people like you telling me this snarky crap. I like PSA as sport and I like SchH which I have trained in for purpose lof learnings for many years, but I have better things to do then to play with dogs. I like to train them for work.  ;) 

 Prager Hans 

gsdfan:"The direction of foundation training for a IPO dog certainly should different than for a dog chosen to be a police dog (if that info is known)...but it all involves equipment...so according to Hans "sport".

Hans :OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am not against training civil dogs with equipment. I do  it several times a week. You are just not capable  to understand what I am saying. I'll make it simple so that you can understand it and that Duke does not suffer from reading long posts. I USE EQUIPMENT!
Is that susscint and  clear enough?

SMH.

duke: GSD fan, in germany and czech, dogs need to be titled to be able to breed with them, that doesnot change their genetics or balance of drives, IMO,
therefore still disagree with hans no matter how much he writes.

Hans: Disagree with what? Writing short posts is counterproductive if you do not express your point. 

Duke can you tell me where is relevance to sportism in what you are saying your 2 posts ago?
Hans