Be honest : Is this your dog? - Page 2

SS,
Please do not take VLK as a reputable source for evaluating criteria for LE dogs. I don't know of any LE dog trainer/breeder that places as much emphasis on ball drive as you described.

Or maybe that dog that did react to your helper without a sleeve on is just a nerve bag? Has nothing to do with being civil…it’s just nervy and reacts to non-threats?

Or maybe the 4 dogs that didn’t react to your decoy without a sleeve on are just not trained properly?

Not sure what ball drive has to do with a dog focusing on equipment or the man…sleeve looks nothing like a ball. Helper can’t possibly move the sleeve like he can move a ball.

The “ball drive is the root of all evil” argument is told and retold by people with dogs that lack the drive to be high level dogs and so they decide to call them “real.” Most of these dogs don’t have enough prey drive so the helper has to resort to pushing them into defense to get a bite out of them and spins it to the handler as the dogs are “real.” Breeders of those types of dogs use the same reasoning for why their dogs are so great and why it is they can’t compete even at a club trial for a HIT (don’t even ask their dog to go to a regional and work on a strange helper). Usually this also involves bashing anyone that has a dog that shows even a little bit of drive in obedience (when a ball is used for training) and claiming they don’t want their dogs to act that way because it’s not natural and a “real K9” would never need to heel that way. But wait…none of them actually handle real K9s or will ever handle a real K9 but like to believe their lack of drive, drag ass dog, will one day be called into action by their local PD.

A properly trained dog…that is shown what a threat picture looks like…will react to that picture…sleeve or no sleeve. Most dogs focus on the sleeve because they know THAT is the only thing they’re allowed to bite. Doesn’t mean they won’t bite something else…but they know when the sleeve is in the picture, they’ll be biting that area. Train a dog properly, they’ll still guard and bite when a sleeve isn’t in the picture.

Bavarian Wagon +10

Mithuna,

A normal sane stable GSD does not go off on strangers for no reason as I'm sure you have been told many times by members of this board. This is a sign of an unstable dog with weak(also called thin) nerves. Our standard calls for the dog to have a neutral reaction to non-threating strangers (to tolerate the approach politely but not to seek it). You should also spend some time watching herding dogs work and watch the difference between border collies (a tight eyed breed) and GSDs ( a loose eyed breed). There is no need for your dog to follow a viistor around your property. A good dog from a loose eyed breed knows exactly where that person is and what they are doing, where her owner is and what her owner's reaction is at that moment to the world at large as well as to the "strange" person on her property AND adjusts her behavior accordingly while still on watch not only of the visitor but for that strange guy who's thinking about climbing the side fence to her property or the coyote trying to sneak up on her stock - that is a sound balanced GSD.

Joanro - really? You are approving of the behavior of Mithuna's dog? I hope like hell both of you have very high limit liability insurance policies because some day the person who get badly bitten by this dog is going to own Mithuna's house, retirement fund and a portion of his paycheck for the rest of his life. And he can not claim it was an unknown problem given his postings on this site which are easily discoverable. This dog could NOT pass a basic BH never mind get a title or be koered. This is not remotely correct GSD temperament and for the dog's sake, Mithuna's sake and the breed's sake I pray that he in fact does have her under control BUT as a trainer friend oft said - management always fails. And it does sooner or later. We become secure, we get inattentive at the wrong moment, the lead breaks. I only hope some child does not pay for Mithuna's ego by getting savaged by this dog.

Mithuna, a sound stable dog picks up cues from it's owner. This is a friend I am inviting in and the dog acts accordingly. That same dog will react differently if someone is trying to break into the house. They will act normally on a walk until someone across the street gives off the wrong vibes and then they will go to the end of the lead with their attention fixed on that person. Depending on the level of threat percieved there may be a low warning growl. As the handler you should be in control at that point and be able to say good dog - watch, laut, packit - whatever is appropriate to what is actually happening OR say good dog that'll do come along if the stranger continues on their way OR you see it is someone you know who is not a threat have the dog politely meet the person. We make those decisions not the dog and have then had a dog that could be used in an appropriate manner given multiple scenarios.This is what owning a stable balanced well trained solid nerve GSD will give you - not constant worry and liability.

Bavarian Wagon - thumbs up I agree w/ much of what you said.

Good helpers I have seen always do a bit of reinforcing without the sleeve as part of the training process but that requires a confident helper w/ very good reflexes to minimize the risk of a bite. Even when there has been a glancing bite these helpers take it in stride never blaming the dog just their own response slowness.

I've also seen poor helpers refuse to do this because they were as afraid of a strong confidant dog as a nervy one (so they are right to refuse because in that scenario they probably will get bit because if I know they are afraid of the dog so does the dog know). Interestingly, I have seen a strong confidant dog that was always clean unless it was a weak helper that was afraid of the dog's strength and intensity. Then the dog would be dirty as if saying - too late I've got your number.

Then there are the very rare helpers with such a strong mind and presence that many dogs do not want to even engage them.

So there are many factors to this "game" we play - handler, helper, dog - nerves, conditioning, strength, weakness, training on all three.

Sunsilver, I think unfortunately you were mixing apples and oranges.

"what's the #1 thing people test a dog for these days when selecting for schutzhund/sport, or even, God help us, law enforcement?? Come on, you all know this: BALL DRIVE!! And we wonder WHY we get dogs that are fixated on the equipment, not the decoy? Roll eyes If we really wanted civil dogs, we need to go back to the days of William Kohler, and test the dog's reaction to what he calls a 'sneak': someone dressed in strange, baggy clothing, and acting in a suspicious manner."  .

Yes a police dog will be tested for ball drive. It speaks to certain drive levels but also makes for an easy reward/reinforcement system especially because most k9 handlers are not good dog trainers/handlers. Note i said most not all - the reasons are for another thread. But I will guarantee you that dog will also be tested by a "sneak" as you describe or by being staked out alone w/o handler support to see his reaction to and perception of threat and he also may be flanked

"I also remember reading a story about a police officer selecting a new dog - again, he chose the one that had the strongest drive to find the ball he hid in a large field. Hey, that's great if you're training a drug or bomb dog, but this dog was going to work on the street."

Here you are mistaking hunt drive for ball drive. Sort of doesn't matter whether it's a ball, bone or stick. What the handler is looking for is how hard and long the dog will persist in search for the object. This is hunt drive. And yes it is highly useful to a working police dog. Most are dual purpose dogs. They not only apprehend the bad guy - they search for him or the department also uses them to search for evidence (the thrown away gun, knife, drugs) or a lost person or sometimes the department will cross use them as a drug dog (police depts are bureacracies that want the most bang for their buck). So the officer above was NOT testing ball drive but rather hunt drive.

." My friend was standing at the fence, talking to her neighbour, and the dog saw him as a threat and went for him. She was euthanized the same day. With selection criteria other than ball drive, and the proper training from a young age, this dog might have been just what a law enforcement officer needed."

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Please read my first post responding to Mithuna and Joanro. What this dog demonstrated was an unstability that would make it useless even with "proper training". A stable GSD should not randomly attack a non-threatening human being especially in the presence of an owner/handler who's behavior is signaling that this is an ok person. This is a nervy dog by any definition. Would you live with a dog that might "go off" at anytime for no reason never mind put this dog on the street with hordes of people normal and strange, quiet and noisy, walking, running for a bus, stumbling drunk?

So tig, what would you have mathuna do with his dog? Given he is training with a trainer, is aware of the dog's temperament, would you rather he kill the dog? It is what it is, he's not taking the dog to a school yard and setting the dog on kids...what the hell. Not every dog is a poster dog for the breed, and unfortunately, many owners opt with dumping their gsds with reactive temp at the pound rather than doing what mithuna is doing with his. At least he is comitted to being responsible and taking care of his dog and training it.
BTW, why does mithuna need to put BH on his dog or have it koerd?

And why do i need high liability insurance? My dogs are not goofy crazed maniacs poised to attack every benign stranger they see...wth

Well this is a turn around....complete turn around!!!!

As I move around the internet I see many people have dogs with similar temperament and its no " biggie " for them.
Like I said before this dog goes everywhere in NYC and is very comfortable with all the hustle and bustle of truly Urban life. I agree that good supervision and control is required.
Here's what another widely know expert says: " Your pup is and is displaying a natural and typical expression of such breeding. Hackles standing up in a young dog is not necessarily problem of weak nerves. This type of a dog is driven by protective aggression but because it is not mature and experiences\d enough then it may display hackles and teeth and deep bark in order to make itself look bigger and more formidable. The important fact is that she is not backing away but is standing her ground and/or is advancing.
Most people who have experience only with sport mainly prey driven dogs do not understand this behavior in young dogs or even pups and call it weak nerves. In prey driven sport dog it could be so but not in this type of a dog. It is a sad state of affair that these type of dogs are more and more rare due to the fact that there are not too many people who understand these dogs or able to handle these dogs and thus they are disappearing. "

WHICH EXPERTS SHOULD WE BELIEVE?

SHOULD BELIEF BE FORUM DEPENDENT?

 I got one of them, "rare" dogs. Too bad he's a mutt!