Did any Working Line dogs compete? - Page 6

Two events - trial and show.
I don´t think they would be "top" in either Siegershow or Siegerprüfung, but that´s not the thought about this title - it´s about the all around dog, the "universal" dog, a German Shepherd, looking like a German Shepherd AND working like a German Shepherd.

Besides that, a dog doesn´t need to be a "top 10" dog, try to participate, try to even qualify, and you´ll know...
 

I think the whole notion of dog shows being about an "ideal" conformation as interpreted by someone's eyes on any particular day compared to the written word is silly.  There is a standard, a dog either fits it, or it doesn't.  There are major faults that will disqualify some and minor faults that are unwanted, but not deal breakers.  Line the dogs up, measure them, check their teeth, do they look like a GSD?  Good, now lets see what they can do.  It would make things a lot simpler, but then, it would bring the great marketers to their knees.  They'd no longer be able to market to their audiences perception of reality when a dog either fits or doesn't fit a standard.  One of their greatest tools to generate "worth" would be gone.

I suppose the same could be said for IPO titles.  how many puppies get sold based on a generated market because of some title?  Though I know I tend to put more stock in how a dog performs than how it is interpreted to look by someone, it still is an avenue to generate "worth" rather than pass fail.  

I'm probably just rambling, I suppose most people aren't like me though.  I don't use either as a measuring stick to give me a dogs worth, i want to see it and I want to work it.   I want to see if a dog has what I want, inside of it.  I don't much care for anyone else's interpretation of what they may or may not have.  I have a feeling that making it so dogs either fit a standard or don't, or they pass a breed test or don't won't make things any better since most don't seem to want to put in the work to know what a dog has in it anyway.  They just want to be told

I was just curious as you said to Avoid the universal Sieger type competitions and I wondered why. But maybe I just read your comments Wrong!!

I should probably pay attention to my contracts class for a little bit...haha

Z dog, I agree with you in theory. However, there should be some kind of objective measurement of standard. Otherwise, people would just breed what they like without regard to correct type.

To me, it's not about an individual's preference for what they want in  a dog. It should be about maintaining the proper breed standard as a whole.

The's, people left to their own devices would just select whatever it is they find necessary. This may or may not be the ideal German Shepherd standard and working ability and type.

As I had mentioned in previous post on this forum, shows and working titles are just one piece of the puzzle. 

I am assuming the German Shepherd standard was set up for evalluation for evaluating of conformation and working ability because that is what the original founder of the breed wanted. So, as much as you might like to do what you want, we have a set standard that should be adhered to maintain breed type and function and that includes an evaluation that partly consists of a conformation show and working ability.

Okay, My law school professor  just stared at me! I need to hop off the forum for now

Smiley - only for you - when I was 24 I quit law school ( wanted to become a lawyer ) cause I was interested in German Shepherds only - don´t repeat my mistakes ...

it's not about being left to their own devices, which we basically are anyway, it's about a dog fitting a standard, or they don't.  I don't think there is any "perfect" conformation and I don't think judges picking and choosing the "best" so they can change the look the the Shepherd would be an issue, because people wouldn't flock to breed to VA Seiger dog A over V or SG dog B because of some market value based entirely on perception that is heavily influenced by politics and money.  If dog A  and Dog B both fit the standard, and make no mistake about the, the standard has a range for a reason.  Why people want to breed to some mythical "ideal" is mostly based on creating a market by shaping perceptions.  If A and B are both within the standard, I then said, let's see what they can do.

If they both have all the stuff to pass a breed test, then which dog do I like better?  That's all that matters.

I am not a breeder but this is how I show my dogs (I currently have a WGSL, a WL/SL cross, and I have also showed and owned working lines): I show my own dogs in the UKC ring and for breed surveys (even the conformation parts) and should have shown my own dog at our last SV show.  Normally for SV shows I use a handler called Monica.  She is great with all dogs from puppies to unruly, dominant male dogs, both working and show line. I've also used handlers from Team Huerta Hof.  I *can* show my own dogs in SV but use these handlers because they are juniors (well, I'm not sure if Monica is anymore) and I like to support juniors being involved in dog events and gaining experience.  I have no team or kennel behind me.  I buy dogs that I personally train and compete with.  I don't breed dogs or sell puppies. A judge isn't going to look at me and think, "oh she's from THAT kennel with all those big name studs and producing all those litters being shown here!"  I've always been the underdog and have to travel out of state to enter SV shows (there are none in my state, ever) so when it comes to handling, I don't have a problem paying a junior handler a class fee to handle my dogs.  As I said in my previous post, despite conformation being my *last* priority in all that I do, I've always been satisfied with the placements and ratings my dogs have earned.  They've always earned the highest rating available in their class (even my working line and my work/show cross) but typically do not place in the top because I don't ring train and it sometimes shows.  That's only fair, IMO.  I've taken 2 confomation classes that helped me with my presentation and ring ettiquette as far as my UKC shows.

Are you telling me that if I put in the time to arrive with a fit, well trained dog who is quality I will have an absolute fair chance to take top honors without a premier kennel name, top handler, or previous showing in Germany?

No, because a Sieger Show is not about just showing up with a dog.  People spend years doing ring training and showing a dog at prior shows for experience, months doing hardcore conditioning (some of the top dogs are being exercised off and on leash for hours a day leading up to a huge show), hours of grooming, etc.  You can't train to earn a CGC and show up to earn a SchH1.  If you want to place at the top of a Sieger Show (in a working class), that takes years of work.  A Sieger Show is not just about winning the show on that day.  The top contenders are dogs that are showing progeny groups and have already been presented to the judge at least once.  They are being rated on their *progeny* as much as their own performance on that day. Also to be elligble for a VA rating the dog needs 3 generations of breed surveyed dogs in the pedigree.  So, you can contend to win a Sieger show if you have been campaigning your dog, have his progeny shown, and meet the requirements to earn a VA rank. It is not something that just happens on that day.  Now, there are always going to be a dozen or so contenders for that top spot who HAVE put in all that time and are contending, so between those dogs their performance on that day will matter, but among ALL dogs at the show....no, it's not an even playing field and isn't really meant to be.

Thanks, Susie!!! :-)

Good post VKG. But, I have a hard time believing a show dog is fitter than my working dog or better trained. At our training peak, she was running off leash 6-8 miles 4 days a week over the hills culminating in a 9 hour hike over THREE 4000 foot mountains. That was in addition to her tracking 3-4 times a week, daily obedience, and doing protection on the field. Please....no freaking way a showdog is fitter than my bitch. No way.

She was shown to a UKC champion and stacks beautifully. It's not rocket science. She holds her stack easily.

So, all this  talk of the tremendous amount of training and conditioning as a reason for dogs placing high seems like crap to me.

On another note, it seems to me awfully young dogs seem to be awarded VA without large progeny groups. I thought VA was special and took years and a lot of progeny to earn? I'm not seeing it