DWilliams,  I do not recall what my earlier post was in relation to MiamiDadeK9s ;
but I can tell you the 'dislike' was unlikely to also be mine.  I tend to use Dislike
 only very rarely, and then mostly to indicate disagreement when I'm not posting a
written response.

I'm with Hexe when she said at the start of her replies that she wasn't defending any
puppy mass-marketeer, but ...  as you yourself say, medical facts is medical facts, -
whatever one feels about the breeders involved.

It is a pity that you chose to buy from this breeder even though in doing some 'homework'
you had seen negative comments;  what do you think breeders say in response to any
Internet critiscism, did you expect 'Mike & Helen' to agree with what had been said of them ?

BUT  if the bitch did not have any history of Demodetic Mange flair ups herself, they can
hardly be dissed for breeding from her, whatever other faults they may have as breeders.

It is thought that puppies 'inherit' the mites while suckling on their mothers.  I am unaware
of any 100 % safe, 100 % effective  method of treating in-whelp bitches to ensure they are
absolutely not carrying Demodex and absolutely cannot transmit any to their offspring.  In
the absence of such a wonderful prophylactic, and the absence of a known problem of the
mother suffering an outbreak, if you were the breeder, how would you ensure that 8 or 9
months later, none of 'your' puppies had an episode ?

Unless you can incontravertably prove the bitch had a known problem with Demodetic
Mange at some earlier point,  you must, I'm afraid, swallow this as  'just one of those things
that can go wrong with any dog'.

The demodectic mite is present in a majority of dogs and passed from mothers to puppies while still nursing.  There is NO way to prevent passing the mite.  In most dogs/puppies the demodectic mite is kept at bay by a healthy immune system...yet the mite is opportunistic if the immune system is down, especially in an under-developed immune system of a young dog.  Demodex can be genetic, yet it can also have environmental triggers; from hormonal changes, to stress from training, boarding, spay, housing changes, over vaccination, feeding inappropriate food or food change, exposure to disease or viruses and the list goes on.  Demodex can pop up in any bloodline any time, generally a localized case is not genetic. I'm sorry about what you are going through, and I know it SUCKS!  My very first show puppy (many years ago, a puppy I bought with my own money as a teenager) had generalized demodex, although I blamed the vet who over vaccinated her (before I knew better), not the breeder. I did the horribly toxic dips (would never do it again...no need to put the dipper and the dipee in danger of liver damage!!).  There are other options to kill mites that are much safer, for example Ivermectin could be used to kill the mite (just make sure she does not have an Ivermectin sensitivity, there are genetic tests for this), natural spot treatments (a dilution of tea tree oil..and others), as well as naturally boosting her own immune system through diet and supplements.  Also, have to say...buying a puppy is NOT like buying a car...you cannot compare live animals and genetics to building a machine; neither genetics nor animals work this way.  Simply not possible.  You can put the very best representatives (show winners, high in trial SchH3 dogs, with every health test available) of the breed togetherand still produce puppies with structural/temperament/health flaws and issues. 

PS: not defending your breeder, would never buy one of their dogs...ever.

 

Can't say I've read everything on this post, just a quick skim, as I am still trying to get my eyes to focus before my first cup of coffee,  but, 

Could this be the part dwilliams is objecting to:

 

Why doesn't the immune system mature correctly in some dogs?

Development of the immune system is under genetic or hereditary control. Thus, an affected dog often has littermates that are also affected. Owners of littermates should be alerted to watch for the development of mange in their puppies. Because the disease is due to a genetic defect, affected dogs should not be bred, and the parents of the affected dog should not be bred again.
http://www.vcahospitals.com/main/pet-health-information/article/animal-health/mange-demodectic-in-dogs/741

Seems to me, she's not sure if her dog will change from the common localized demodectic mange to the more serious generalized condition because of a genetic immunity issue.

I am sure everyone would agree such a dog in that category should not be bred. Oh, and here is the refresher thread, for everyone else....
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/forum.read?mnr=733570-miami-dade-county-k9-services&pagen=1

The vet insisting on archaic remedy of a toxic dip, which will cause liver damage is one who should be in question here. Ivomec is much less toxic and is very affective in curing mange.

How quickly things change.

If this is the only area of demodex on your dog and if it is not spreading, it is a localized case at this time and does not need any treatment, it will self cure. If you feel as if you need to do something, ask your vet for Goodwinol Ointment. If it is spreading or showing up in other areas, then it needs to be treated.  Every generalized case begins as localized, so be vigilant. The drug of choice is injectable or topical ivermectin.  There is also the chance that a secondary bacterial infection will develop making her very itchy and scabby. If that happens, she will need an antibiotic like keflex.

If this stays localized, the dog should be safe to use for breeding. If it ends up generalized, then this dog should not be used for breeding and her dam should not be bred again. If you plan to use this dog for breeding it's probably a better idea to not treat a localized spot so you can see if it is indeed stays localized or develops into a generalized case.

 

Promeris ( http://www.drugs.com/vet/promeris-for-dogs.html) would most likely clear this up in one treatment and also prevent fleas an ticks.
When i was grooming for the vet office we had a couple rescue a dog that looked like it had been set on fire and stomped out with a golf cleat!
The poor dog was nothing but a mass of scabs and oozing skin.  He was nearly hairless and we weren't even sure what breed he might be. After 1 treatment with Promeris he came back in two weeks later and his skin looked a lot better, he was starting to sprout hair all over and he smelled much better too. A month later and a second dose of Promeris and he was actually almost fully furry and we figured out he was a white Shih Tzu.
Turns out the little guy had a super crappy immune system and if he missed just 1 does of Promeris he started getting mites from the couple's other two poodles. Neither of which had ever had any mange mites problems.
Promeris does work just as they claim and if you can get some it will help this puppy out very quickly.

Demodex mange is almost like Acne in teenagers, we get it and hopefully it goes away as we mature. But some people always seem to suffer acne.
Now you'd be in real trouble if you dog had Scabies Mange which is very contagious! That would have me freaking out right now! But a little bout of Demodex, meh no big deal.
And i agree with Jonaro, if the vet wants to use the old, dangerous mite dip find another vet, how old is your vet 100 year? So out dated and un safe.
Fry

Veterinarians run a business and it is not about helping you or your dog .. it is about making money for them and paying their numerous staff members.  Vets are right less than half the time about genetic faults because they blame everything from hip dysplasia to immune system disorders on genetics.  It is very advantageous for dog food manufacturers, vets, vaccine makers, and anyone selling any product your dog comes in contact with during their life cycle to blame everything on genetics as the owner of the dog can't sue their own dog or themselves.  Less than 10% of human cancers are truly genetic and that is a fact based on what is now state of the art genetic science.  Most cancers are environmental in nature or are a function of genetics interacting with environment.  This same rule holds true for most other maladies of humans and dogs  .. 90% environmental and 10% genetics alone.  Before you get on a tirade better get to know some facts!!  Perhaps a species appropriate diet (not Royal corn in a bag) such as real fresh meat and fresh food would help your dog when combined with one hour or more of real free running exercise per day outdoors.  As has been pointed out previously the transition from puppy to maturity is fraught with hormonal and endocrine related maladies that often abate after maturity so perhaps time will tell if your puppy is just going through some growth and maturity changes.  My Czech bred GSD reach maturity at around two to two and one half years of age.  I am not a fan of Miami-Dade K-9 Services and I would not buy from them but your case for public humiliation and kangaroo court style internet trial of them is very weak and full of personal bias based on some very weak science.  Your veterinarian will do what's best for your dog so long as it is also best for his business and that is the way the health care system works for both humans and animals.

Demodectic Mange in Dogs

By T. J. Dunn, Jr., DVM

 

Demodex in the dog is a common infestation of the dog’s skin with tiny, cigar-shaped, eight-legged mites. Also referred to as demodectic mange, the mites reside and feed in the hair follicle and oil glands of the skin.

 

Demodex is generally less severe than Sarcoptic mites (often called scabies) and in most cases is self-limiting -- that is, the animal is able to arrest the reproduction and growth of the mites and eventually repair the damage they do. 

 

Once eliminated, most dogs do not acquire another infestation; the dog’s immune defenses are primed to eliminate any new demodex mites. However, there are certain dogs that, because of genetic programming, do not produce the specific immune factors that will target the mites for destruction. That specific lack of adequate immune defense against the mites is a hereditary aspect of the disease that can predispose an infested dog to a severe, unresponsive case of demodex.

 

Many veterinarians believe that all dogs have small numbers of demodex mites residing in the skin and that having a few mites is normal and common. It is when immune related -- or nutritional or environmental -- stresses impact the dog that visible skin lesions from mite infestations become noticeable.

 

To learn more about Demodicosis, please read the Q&A section below:

 

Q: Can Demodex mites be inherited?

A: No.The mites are not present on the fetus while the fetus is developing from an embryo in the uterus. However, if the mother has Demodex mites present in/on her skin, the mites can invade the new fetus’ skin immediately after birth. Since many dogs have Demodex mites present in their skin, and never actually develop noticeable skin lesions, the mother may not even be showing any signs of mites and yet transmit mites to the newborn pups. The pups may or may not develop a clinical case of mites.

 

Q: Why, then, do I keep hearing that Demodex can be inherited?

A: The problem is the wording. The specific antibodies that will defend against infestation of Demodex can be inherited and most dogs have those immune factors and are able to defend against Demodex. But some individuals have inherited a deficiency of those antibodies and just don't have the ability to fend off the mites. So the ability to resist the mites, or not resist, is inherited. The actual mites are not inherited.

 

Q: So if I have a pup that has Demodex and it is only six weeks old and has never been in contact with any dogs outside our home, the mites must have come from the mother. But the mother has never had Demodex so how could that happen?

A: Your assumption that the mother dog has "never had" Demodex is probably not valid. Demodex mites have been proven to inhabit the hair follicles of many, many dogs, humans and other mammals without causing the host any problems at all. So these mites can be present in normal and healthy individuals (who have inherited the immune factors needed to keep the mites suppressed). So just because you have not experienced a visible skin lesion on your dog does not mean that the dog has no mites present.

 

Q: How do Demodex mites affect humans?

A: Human demodex cases are rather rare but do occur. The images on the right are of an animal caretaker who became infested in the facial regions with demodex mites. She had been providing the dog with prescribed treatments in the animal hospital.  After consulting with a human dermatologist she was eventually able to eliminate the mites but the process entailed numerous topical treatments and also systemic medications. After six months of treatment, all symptoms of the mites disappeared.

 

Q: If I have a dog that has Demodex, does that mean I should not breed it?

A: If the dog, male or female, has a protracted, difficult-to-cure case of Demodex, that dog should not be bred. If you have a dog that has or had a brief, localized episode of Demodex and has recovered well, then breeding may be considered; but some veterinarians believe that any dog that has displayed skin manifestations of Demodex should be removed from a high quality breeding program.

 

Q: If a young dog has been diagnosed with Demodex, is it best NOT to spay or neuter the dog until the Demodex has been cleared up? 

A: From Dr. David Senter of Englewood, Colorado, a Board Certified Specialist in Veterinary Dermatology ... "Most dermatologists will elect not to treat a dog with generalized demodicosis unless it has been spayed or neutered. The reason for this is simply due to the high likelihood of the affected dog's offspring to develop demodicosis. There is absolutely no benefit to NOT spaying or neutering a dog undergoing treatment. On the other hand, reproductive hormones in female dogs in heat (estrus) or in pregnant dogs can cause worsening of the mites or make it more difficult to control them. However, the presence of male reproductive hormones (un-neutered males) makes no known difference in the ability to control the Demodex mites.  On a different note: I do not treat dogs with localized demodicosis (less than six affected spots) because more than 90% of them will resolve on their own. By treating them, you will never know if the patient would have become a generalized case or not.

 

Q: Is Demodex transmissible to my healthy dog from a dog that is infested?

A: Healthy dogs are quite resistant to infestations and, as mentioned, may already have a number of mites residing harmlessly in the skin. It is best, though, to not allow your dog to have direct physical contact with a dog that has an active case of Demodex ... just to be safe.

 

Q: What about the dog that suddenly develops Demodex later in life and never had it as a puppy?

A: This is called Adult-onset Demodicosis and is most commonly seen in what are assumed to be healthy dogs but that in reality are actually affected with an underlying pathology or immune compromising disorder. Therefore, whenever a veterinarian is presented with a case of Demodex in an adult dog the doctor is alerted to the possibility that there is a potentially serious underlying disease going on that has compromised the dog's immune integrity. Such afflictions as cancer, Hypothyroidism, Systemic Fungal Disease, adrenal gland diseases and even exposure to prescribed cortisone medications can allow previously innocuous resident mites to reproduce rapidly and cause visible skin disease. Adult-onset demodicosis is not a genetically programmed disorder. These cases can be difficult to cure unless the underlying stressor is resolved successfully.

 

 

 
 

Dwilliams, 
Please do not compare the dogs to a car it is much different than buying a car.