IPO-R title - Page 8

Momo,

There are MANY things an IPO trained dog will not perform as well as a more specialized breed or a dog with specified training.

We can certainly disagree on what the USCA and/or SV "ought" to allow for the breed survey requirements of the German Shepherd Dog.  That in no way diminishes a dog's accomplishment in another discipline nor the merits of pursuing those other disciplines to "prove" additional versatility or capability.

BTW, as things currently stand, you are free to breed ANY purebred GSD in America, register them with the AKC, and breed until your heart's content.  

For my "small" segment of the GSD world, I prefer the current baseline standard and an organization that forcefully stands for it.  From that standard has come the GSDs capable of performance in all of the other disciplines you have described. 

And, BTW, my experience is far different from yours - those who think the FH is "stupid" because they failed and/or didn't adequately train crosstracks.  Any such failure would be on me, the trainer, and those I associate with no doubt think the same.

Best,

Kevin

momsgarage
Yes, the dog did get scent of something 10 yards from the finish of her track; It was a very rare mistake by her, she has done several tracking competitions and her lowest score was 93 and she was in season at that time. So what you are saying really is that dogs doing an FH and RH tracks DO NOT make any mistakes at all and every dog that gets awarded those titles have to do a perfect track without any errors at all, if not your post reads just that. Now as for just a 400 m track for a IPO 3 dog it is lefts and rights some turns will be only 5 to 10 paces and the dog has to lay down on Items, do the dogs in an FH etc lay down on items and not move. Plus and remember this the Tracking phase is only ONE part of a IPO dog getting the grade it has to be top in obedience, retrieving the Block, jumping etc plus other bits and Protection the Bite is most important as is the out of a bite. when a dog is wound up like a spring the Side transport etc the dog must control its self and stay right in line with the handlers leg. that takes and shows what sort of dog you have one who can hold its self together most cannot so they forge ahead of the handler of course that is losing a lot of points.
As regards your thoughts on the performance of my dog it means nothing. i know it was not the same dog that she normally is because her performance was mediocre, the fault lies with the Owner, Me not the dog, She will track a 1000 yards if i want her too makes no difference simply because she has done it many times, and in any conditions but they are flesh and blood and prone to make the odd mistake even the very best and world champions make mistakes
Steve1.

@Kevin Nance

I agree with your viewpoint, the only reason I got "long winded" in my post is because steve1 thinks any IPO3 dog/handler can just go out an do the HGH, FH or RH because in his opinion they are easier titles to earn.  Re-read his old posts and you will see his total disdain for anything other than IPO.  I think this is a very unfortunate and narrow minded stance.  Its one thing to explain why you prefer one venue or training method over another, its a whole different thing to deny the existence or purpose of something you are unfamiliar with.  In my opinion he went far further than just  "disagreeing on what the USCA and/or SV "ought" to allow for the breed survey requirements of the German Shepherd Dog", even when existing rules were presented to him.  He downright mocked folks training for other venues and/or folks keeping up on newer training methods outside the "tried and true" traditional methods.  I don't feel you are in that place, nor have you ever been, as far as I can see in your posts.

As for the trainer who give up on the FH and RD, I usually don't see them attempting it again, but will see them working and trailing other dogs for IPO 1-3.  I suppose I can't guess their intentions, but it certainly doesn't look like a "nut" they are willing to attempt to "crack" again.

@steve1 in the RH there is an obedience, tracking and agility phase, three phases just like IPO.  I have mentioned the FH in my posts because its something folks are more like to be familiar with and has more similarities with the RH-E than the Tr 1-3.  Thats the only reason, if everyone knew what the RH we would not be having this discussion.  As for your comment about mistakes, of course they happen, but an FH or RD trained dog would likely have little trouble going back to a 400 pace track with no cross tracks, those are warm up tracks for the most part when training at that level.  In the other thread all I did was ask about whether you were training for cross-tracks based on the tracking results you divulged.  Ask someone else you trust to confirm my thought process who does tracking beyond the Tr/IPO 1-3, they'll tell you something along the same lines of thought. Nothing controversial or far fetched here.  In fact steve1, you are definitely far enough along with this dog to do the FH 1-2, start training and trialing for the title, today!  Who knows what you will find out about yourself, your methods of training and your dogs on that journey

That post is my "olive branch" to you, lets start being civilized.  I assume you are a likely better "protection phase" trainer than I'll ever be, but you on the other hand also assume there is no possibility that we could be better, equal or worse than one another in another training areas.  That type of assumption needs to end here.

Being a member of SV , for myself  "allowed" doesn´t mean I have to agree...I´m glad that the dogs with RH title AT LEAST do have to get a breed survey.

For me a German Shepherd is A COMBINATION of TRACKING, OBEDIENCE, AND PROTECTION WORK ( never ever forget the show rating...) and EVERY DOG not able to compete in ALL OF THESE DISCIPLINES is NOT BREEDWORTHY - my personal opinion, not more, not less.

Almost every breed is able to track, almost every breed is able to be obedient, BUT only a few breeds are able to compete in IPO, Ring, or Mondio.
A German Shepherd without hardness, courage,  and fighting drive ( sorry, I´m an Oldtimer...) is not breedworthy in my personal opinion.

momosgarage
I lost a post somewhere and it explained that i did not mock others doing different sports with there dogs. and it is a good job we do not all compete in the IPO sport there would be an over crowd and the sport would suffer for it. What i was trying to get across was the breed survey of a HGH title etc but Susie has since cleared that up saying they do the same. i accepted that, So no reason for an HGH dog or a FH dog not to get a breed survey. in our club we do not just train in IPO we have about 16 Guys who train only in Agility and B.O.P and they compete. We all help each other i help out when i can for new members who have problems say in footing the dog some come and the dog is pulling then every way the wind blows so we help them? also Pups we help out with them just the age to teach footing; and downing. about 10 Guys came to the venue to support us they trained early then drove to the venue. We all do it and it matters not if it is a sport other than IPO we are a club and that is all that matters so i do not have a one track mind. but my goal is the  Belgian selection trials next Spring then see how it goes; but first she has to get her IPO 3 which i do not think is any problem. You should think of the manner in which you talk to people you ridicule them and that is wrong. You may have had a better education than i have, most did. it was the time and era we were born and lived in. But i do know one thing i can say i have seen more, and done more in my life than a huge amount of people on this forum including yourself. a tough up bringing i had but i owe not one cent to any living soul, including the Banks i own my own house paid for i do not have savings of any kind, and live a simple life but have had quite some hairy times in it? every thing i have was done honestly so i can say Yes, Steve you have not done too badly. I do not bear you any ill will it is just talk on a forum at the end of the day, we have one thing in common i guess we both like animals and Dogs so that is not so bad
.Steve1

@suzie Slamdunc and steve1  You all seem to agree on the bitework aspect being an important factor of evaluation that cannot be omitted.  Before I begin, please note I do not disagree with this as a universal worldwide concept, however, I believe the "liability issues" of bite-work training are only growing worse for those residing in the United States.  I can think of quite a few situations where a breed survey worthy dog should not engage in bitework training due to liability issues "reserved for civilians" whom are not sworn law enforcement. 

First, local ordinances already prohibit the ownership of bitework trained dogs, albeit phrased in VERY VAGUE terms, giving the local government an edge should charges be brought against said bitework trained dog owner.  Second a number of insurance providers will not insure dogs trained in bitework, even if its an "additional policy", not taking into account the eventual denial of coverage if a claim is ever filed or even being rendered uninsurable by competitors.  Last, many organizations have insurance that covers their occupied properties and participating members for accidental bites, like SAR, therapy dogs, etc, that coverage is null and void if the dog does bitework. 

My strong support of the RH having equal status to the IPO titles is entirely because I imagine a possible future where bitework and IPO titles will be reserved for working law enforcement and will simultaneously be considered an insurance liability for all other civilians owning bitework trained dogs.  The national/local codes and insurance companies are, without a doubt, moving in this direction and I feel there is very little the schutzhund/modio/ring community will be able to do about it.  The only option in the future will be to provide a non-bitework oriented compromises today, essentially qualifying RH titled dogs for a breed survey.  If things go as far, as I know they will, the only way people will be able to do breed surveys in the USA is to allow "something like" the RH to count, possibly even eliminating the bitework portion of the breed survey and/or substituting it for something else. Not ideal, but certainly better than nothing, because big business and government has already made a decision for us, they just need time to implement it into the local/national codes (because its already buried on your insurance policy, they just "deny" your claim should the need arise, rendering you possibly uninsurable for life).  The tide has already swept us away, so I'll bet the USCA slowly implementing IPO-R could be their "life-boat".

momosgarage
The Protection part of IPO is to most people watching the really interesting bit of the sport, I will refer to my own dog firstly she is very fast over the ground and when she attacks there is never a hint of slowing down or checking the stride as some dogs do it is flat out and on the helper. But it is the manner of how the dog bites it must be full bite and grip some dogs catch it with the front of the teeth that is no good. But to get back to what i think i am reading in your post? do some people in the USA think that because a Dog bites in a Sport it may do it in real life? if so there fears are groundless? Like a Police dog and Slam will know better than me with his Dog Boomer he can do a job of work and still be a family dog in fact his dog does both police work and IPO. We have a Guy over here who is in the military works in Afganistan with his dog. it works every day in places which are dangerous. The same dog is a family dog and has been two times 3rd Place WUSV , so how versatile are they. My own dog is a terror on the Protection but she Loves Children see photo,s i have one of her where she is laying down and the little baby in these pic,s, but it is too big to get on here and i cannot make it smaller in the folder, She is just starting to walk and is astride her back. these pic,s were taken about 10 minutes of Gina finishing her Protection Phase yesterday. it is how you bring them up but above all Quality Breeding a stable dog is the key and that is in the Genes plus a bit of help from the human side
Steve1

Yes, I have to pay extra annually for my GSDs and this is just my normal policy.  If I had a dog with higher social aggression, a dog I'd be worried would bite if my dad tried to come into my house or something like that, then I'd also be looking into an umbrella policy.  So far though, I've chosen GSDs that fit with my lifestyle and training as well as my living situation even if it's not the *exact* dog that I'd prefer to own and train if I couldn't hear my neighbors farting and had a nice kennel setup (I really prefer a more civil dog with more social aggression).  I still do bitework and SchH but yes, it is an added expense and a bigger concern for other people.

Edit:  Steve it doesn't matter what WE think or know of our dogs, you can still be denied or charged extra for insurance.  I have lots of pictures of my Schutzhund titled GSDs with kids, in parades with kids, doing obedience demonstrations with 8 year olds, etc.  It doesn't change the insurance policies unless I want to find another company, which usually costs more or won't accept me at all because of GSDs.

@steve1 in the USA it doesn't matter what the people in a community think for the most part, policians here push unpopular ordinances quite frequently.  The trends I currently see are local governments banning ownership of certain breeds or falsely targeting them for citations.  I have a couple of cities near me that will not issue permits for "dog related" businesses or trial events at parks and will only allow dogs to enter "dog parks".  I have also seen people have their insurance policies canceled due to owning a certain breed of dog, without making any claims, based entirely on an adjuster assuming the breed of the dog when driving by the property (not invited onto or into the property).  People can certainly not expose the fact that they own bitework trained dogs, but in the USA that will just get you sued by the insurance company later, if a claim is filed, because the insurance company was not made explicitly aware that your dog has had bitework training.

I personally don't disagree with anything you have written above, I grew up in a home with German shepherds that did schutzhund.  I know what you say is true, but I also don't write the rules for insurance policies, nor am I an elected official.  Bitework trained dogs have been targeted already, the only course of action now, is to move out of the cross-hairs and pursue Rettungshunde (RH) titles, while not engaging in bitework.  Yes, this is not happening EVERYWHERE in the USA, but it certainly is heading that way, even in rural areas.