IPO-R title - Page 10

Between this thread and a few others I have been following for the last few weeks, I am seeing an unfortunate polarization between the "hands on" types with little education and their deep seated hatred for the "theoretical types", whom have done BOTH school and hands-on animal training/behavior analysis (that includes book learnin' and hands-on practicum with living animals).  No doubt those who have done the "hands-on" stuff have trained more dogs and earned more titles, simply because the "Graduate school animal behaviorist" is relatively new phenomena.  BUT, these "theoretical types" can and will get to a point where they are BOTH "hands-on" with just many trained dog under their belts and at the same time will still have their "theoretical type" education.  There is nothing more going on here, but an age gap separating the build up of field experience. 

On the flip side the "hands on types" never went to school and never will, the only short term advantage they have is the sheer number of trained dogs under their belts due simply to having had more "time on the earth".  Now don't get me wrong the "hands on types" have PLENTY of knowledge to pass on, should they ever get the gumption to do so, but they must also keep in mind that those "picking up the torch" have a foundation to start which they NEVER had and will NEVER gain because of their personal apprehension to the theoretical side and vernacular, explaining what was actually going on all this time they were training dogs, but simply did not know.

There is NO REASON to take a side in this debate, we're on the same side.  PETA's going to put us all out of business at the end of the day, better to get along NOW and find what we have in common rather than what we don't.  This whole RH title argument is a perfect example of something where we can work together to get people training and titling their dogs, instead of these people choosing to stand in front of a breeders property with signs, saying "animals have rights to not be somebody's pet" because they NEVER got a proper introduction to high level dog sports and chose to follow what the media says and its interpretation of what schutzhund is, rather than what it ACTUALLY is.  I'd rather they get involved in RH and FH TODAY, under the same umbrella as schutzhund, so they can be exposed to more venues besides the AKC and what the SPCA has to say about animal ownership.

Here is a thread illustrating my above points, the standoffish nature of schutzhund clubs certainly didn't help this vet develope a more broad perspective, but I strongly feel  if the RH, FH, StP and OB were as well known as the AKC CGC, CDX, Agility or UD MAYBE the vets tone and perspective would have been drastically different:

http://www.rottweiler.net/forums/working-rottweilers/101988-vet-tells-me-no-schutzhund.html

Remember this is what the Vet is telling the general population of pet owners that visit their practice.  The world sees THEM as the expert, NOT you guys.  You can use as MANY "overeducated" and "theoretical type" folks on you side as you can get.  To think you won't need their help on the "public front" is mere ignorance.

Momo,

Its also strange that Slamdunc would make a disparaging comment about Professors not having enough field experience with hands on dog training in the traditional sense.  Is Slamdunc insinuating some kind of unfounded bias because folks participating in the RH venue, that happen to be FEMA handlers, also disproportionately have high numbers of PhD's in their ranks?  Seems so.

No, not at all.  I was referring mainly to you, but a couple of other arrogant, condescending folks that have frequented the PDB that think they are above everyone else solely because of their education, came to mind as well.  But to be completely clear, I rarely respond to any posts or threads that you participate in.  No bias here against FEMA handlers or those involved in academia.   You stated FEMA handlers were making IPO trainers look bad on the FH and RH courses.  I would like some proof of FEMA certified Labs completing and passing an FH, not an RH but an FH????  I find it hard to believe knowing what goes into an FH and what I know of how FEMA dogs are trained.  I would love to see some actual scores and for you to back up these statements.  I could be wrong and perhaps there are one or two FEMA certitified Labs that also have passed an FH.

I completely respect FEMA handlers and those with a PHD.  I understand the effort and hard work required to become a FEMA handler or to earn a PHD.  I also have a tremendous amount of respect for anyone that works a dog in any venue.  Especially those that put their lives in harms way working a dog or respond to call outs at all hours of the night, in all types of weather to find a missing person or respond to a disaster area to search.   I do have a bias towards breeders that breed dogs that probably shouldn't be bred and those that pontificate on topics that they have little experience in.  

edited to add:  Your last post is pretty funny, since you are the one that started the "polarization."     Another us vs them and SchH vs everybody else......

 

@slamdunc See my above comment, you can stay on "your island", I know you are a real, experienced handler and respect that; you could do the same for my areas of focus, even if you don't agree with my interpretations because we BOTH know deep down that what I am saying is not far fetched nor made up out of thin air.  You may not like my tone or approach, but thats not the same things as being totally incorrect. 

You and I both know they are not allowed to "advertise" their FEMA certification, so you need to start looking around and asking folks some probing questions when you are out training with them.  Like I said, some people on this board have a lot of potential to meet in real life, you and I likely know some of the same folks.  You'll likely be surprised at what you find.  You can then forgive me on the "inside", I won't need or require a public recant.  The last thing in the world I want is you giving me the stink-eye because of some "out loud" "ponderings" I had on posted an internet message board. Good day to you slamdunc.

I apologize, the poster was indeed Lober911, not you, but the response was great...
But back on track...Momo: " If the laws change as drastically as I expect your points will be moot and a substitute will need to be found in the USA."
At that point people should stop breeding GS, but they won´t, and the German Shepherd as a breed will end like the Rottweiler, the Boxer, the Airdale Terrier, the Hovavart, the Dobermann, the Schnauzer, and a lot more of formerly real workingdog breeds. You already do have the ASL, maybe it´s time for a AWL. ( working in socially acknowledged sports ).
The Germans may follow a little bit later, changing German Show Line into German Sports Line...

momo,
I doubt we know any of the same people or travel in any of the same circles.  I find a lot of your statements to be far fetched to say the least, including the one about us meeting and me giving you "the stink-eye."  I have far better things to do and that is not my style.  

Getting back to your comment on FEMA certified dogs and the FH and RH, I would expect any FEMA certified dog to easily complete an RH.  I still do not believe that a FEMA certified lab is making IPO handlers look bad on the FH tracking field.  The RH is very similar to what a SAR dog does and trains for, the FH absolutely is not. 

Here is a final Pic, Time to go home, Gina left, and the little Girl Miley in the Pic,s is the daughter of one of the Helpers at our Club
Steve1