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by vk4gsd on 05 August 2013 - 00:08
there ya go.
by Slamdunc on 05 August 2013 - 00:08
I'd be interested in seeing videos of your dogs bite work in two years or so. Let's see how he turns out.
by vk4gsd on 05 August 2013 - 01:08
you think i will last that long here?
by Slamdunc on 05 August 2013 - 01:08
Who knows how long you will stick around here? I'm curious to see your dog's working ability in a couple of years? If you don't last, I'll check youtube for new videos. No worries.
The serious working folk will understand why I want to see videos in two or three years.
The serious working folk will understand why I want to see videos in two or three years.
by vk4gsd on 05 August 2013 - 02:08
care to share what you are talking about/hinting at??
by Hired Dog on 05 August 2013 - 06:08
I have been watching this thread for sometime and with interest....Vk4gsd, I know what you mean about hard, tough dogs and your love for them, I understand how you feel about sport dogs and some training methods.
I would like for you to understand something else though, if you want to expand your mind and continue learning. There are dogs that will always be JUST sport dogs, thats it, happy prey driven sport dogs that can never be dependent upon for anything real life. There are others who will do sport and will bite the sleeve, etc, but, they will also bite you with no sleeve involved either.
There are few, very few, that cant do sport because of control issues and those are the dogs that you will see titled early and then they are taken out of the ring for ever.
The ability and desire to bite a man for real is genetic, training just brings it out and correct training will enhance it. As far as full bites, they do denote a dog's "heart" because they cannot be taught, they are also genetic. I am not sure if its your desire or nature to challenge everyone with what they tell you, I have a good friend who is just like you, but, if you want to continue learning, you have to start somewhere and then trust in someone to show you. In the end, suits, sleeves, muzzles, etc are all tools to enhance a dog's natural and genetic ability to engage in battle with a human simply because no one is willing to take on a dog without equipment.
Slam wants to see your dog when its MATURE to see how it works, if its been trained, and how it does a good bark and hold and outs while keeping its desire to fight a man high. He may also be interested to see how the dog may have been ruined if not properly trained and brought out.
One last thing, not everything said to you in this or any other thread is a personal challenge, my very first patrol dog and the first Malinois in the USA to work the streets as a police dog was the most equipment conscious dog you would ever meet, but, he also did not care if there was no sleeve involved and his many, many street apprehensions, this was back in the early 80's when you could still have your dog bite, were a testament to his desire to hunt and bite human vermin. Good luck to you and your dog.
I would like for you to understand something else though, if you want to expand your mind and continue learning. There are dogs that will always be JUST sport dogs, thats it, happy prey driven sport dogs that can never be dependent upon for anything real life. There are others who will do sport and will bite the sleeve, etc, but, they will also bite you with no sleeve involved either.
There are few, very few, that cant do sport because of control issues and those are the dogs that you will see titled early and then they are taken out of the ring for ever.
The ability and desire to bite a man for real is genetic, training just brings it out and correct training will enhance it. As far as full bites, they do denote a dog's "heart" because they cannot be taught, they are also genetic. I am not sure if its your desire or nature to challenge everyone with what they tell you, I have a good friend who is just like you, but, if you want to continue learning, you have to start somewhere and then trust in someone to show you. In the end, suits, sleeves, muzzles, etc are all tools to enhance a dog's natural and genetic ability to engage in battle with a human simply because no one is willing to take on a dog without equipment.
Slam wants to see your dog when its MATURE to see how it works, if its been trained, and how it does a good bark and hold and outs while keeping its desire to fight a man high. He may also be interested to see how the dog may have been ruined if not properly trained and brought out.
One last thing, not everything said to you in this or any other thread is a personal challenge, my very first patrol dog and the first Malinois in the USA to work the streets as a police dog was the most equipment conscious dog you would ever meet, but, he also did not care if there was no sleeve involved and his many, many street apprehensions, this was back in the early 80's when you could still have your dog bite, were a testament to his desire to hunt and bite human vermin. Good luck to you and your dog.
by Haz on 05 August 2013 - 07:08
Love the dog hate the decoy work. I'm surprised that you Aussies allowed this nonsense about banning Schutzhund to happen..not to mention the other foolishness with e-collars and prongs. How did a bunch of convict frontiersman get so soft in a couple generations? I expect stuff like this from the UK and other western Euro countries not your lot. You lot need to get together and lobby hard. There is no evidence to support that Sport dogs are a higher risk to society then some idiots untrained Sharpie.
by workingdogz on 05 August 2013 - 07:08
Slam, HD etc, GREAT posts! I'm not sure why anyone is still spinning their
wheels trying to be of help to vk4gsd, as it seems he has it all figured out and
doesn't or want input unless it's an "atta boy, looking great". He's already asked
for input on his dogs pedigree, the only hint he's given is Gento shows up. Ok,
WHERE? how many times? Gento is one dog of ________. I'm always much
more concerned with who a dog is directly out of as opposed to who was his
great great great great grand daddy twice removed. No one can help with pedigree
input when only one dog is given, and that dog has been long dead. No one can offer
training input because it's quite obvious this guy knows it all. Sad part is, he is either
too ignorant or too stupid to realize what a wealth of info he has been given here already,
it's there for the taking, one just needs to read. But, at the end of the day, one has to pull
their know it all head out of their @ss and stop being such an argumentative sack if they
truly want to learn. It's pretty obvious that he has not figured out even the best patrol dogs
etc have had the same basic start as the "sport dogs" the OP thinks are so terrible.
Will someone please tell him Gento vh Larwin was also a titled sport dog LMAO!
wheels trying to be of help to vk4gsd, as it seems he has it all figured out and
doesn't or want input unless it's an "atta boy, looking great". He's already asked
for input on his dogs pedigree, the only hint he's given is Gento shows up. Ok,
WHERE? how many times? Gento is one dog of ________. I'm always much
more concerned with who a dog is directly out of as opposed to who was his
great great great great grand daddy twice removed. No one can help with pedigree
input when only one dog is given, and that dog has been long dead. No one can offer
training input because it's quite obvious this guy knows it all. Sad part is, he is either
too ignorant or too stupid to realize what a wealth of info he has been given here already,
it's there for the taking, one just needs to read. But, at the end of the day, one has to pull
their know it all head out of their @ss and stop being such an argumentative sack if they
truly want to learn. It's pretty obvious that he has not figured out even the best patrol dogs
etc have had the same basic start as the "sport dogs" the OP thinks are so terrible.
Will someone please tell him Gento vh Larwin was also a titled sport dog LMAO!
by Slamdunc on 05 August 2013 - 11:08
HD and WD, I figured you and a few others would get what I was talking about. Excellent posts. The OP has a nice dog, nicely balanced but high prey which is fortunate for him. If the dog was higher in defense then this type of "play" would be more serious and could cause some real problems in the future for him. I am really interested in seeing how the dog turns out in a couple of years. The dog may turn out well. Unfortunately, I have seen many promising young dogs that looked great at 6, 8, 12. and 18 months ruined by poor handling and poor training. All of these novice handlers thought they had the greatest, biggest bad ass dog on the planet, then the dog crumbles under pressure and never amounts to anything. You see a completely different dog when it matures due to the genetics, imprinting and training. This really shows itself when serious pressure is applied in training down the road.
vk4gsd, I understand that you want to learn about working dogs and doing bite work. But, "learning" by "practicing" and "playing" with your own dog is rarely a good idea. The results are usually pretty poor and the dog is not better for it. The best way to learn is with an experienced trainer and working older experienced dogs that won't be screwed up by poor presentation, poor grips and poor work. Another thing that you never want to do is to let an inexperienced decoy "learn" on your young dog as you did in one of the other videos. That is another disaster in the making. That guy gave your dog poor presentations, a poor picture of a decoy and prey and "jammed" your dog several times. If you want to take what speed and power your dog has, out of your dog then you are on the right track. That is why I want to see videos of the dog in a couple of years.
vk4gsd, I understand that you want to learn about working dogs and doing bite work. But, "learning" by "practicing" and "playing" with your own dog is rarely a good idea. The results are usually pretty poor and the dog is not better for it. The best way to learn is with an experienced trainer and working older experienced dogs that won't be screwed up by poor presentation, poor grips and poor work. Another thing that you never want to do is to let an inexperienced decoy "learn" on your young dog as you did in one of the other videos. That is another disaster in the making. That guy gave your dog poor presentations, a poor picture of a decoy and prey and "jammed" your dog several times. If you want to take what speed and power your dog has, out of your dog then you are on the right track. That is why I want to see videos of the dog in a couple of years.
by steve1 on 05 August 2013 - 14:08
Well put Jim, your remarks are spot on. The OP needs to step back and re read posts again he can learn a great deal from them, I know i mention Belgium a fair bit but it is only to outline what goes on in the Sport over here and to be fair they are at the fore front of the Dog sports so certainly know what they are talking about? a lot of clubs have Helpers who are particularly good with young dogs, These Guys are very valuable in a club. they take there time and it is they who say enough is enough and in what they do with no interefence from the Handler. That is if you want there help and no one will turn those chances down better let them who knows best help your young Dog along. In our club we have such a Helper really great at bringing a young dog on and boosting there confidence, then before that stage we have another Person who takes the Puppies along if they need help It all stops bad habits forming early on plus it makes it more fun for the handler if she or he is just starting up in the sport the first thing we teach is the recall and sit and down and a little walking every thing is fun to the Pup plus we get 8 to 10 week old pups 4 at once on the field they learn the most important thing earlier that is to intergrate together with both dogs and humans so being among other strange dogs as they grow is second nature to them and they go on great.
There is another thing over here they have an Helpers day sponsered by the V.V.D.H, all the Helpers come together and are Judged on there abilitites and the Top Helper is Crowned the best Helper of say of 2013? No Helper who is NOT Qualified can work in competition work. Hired Dog has said it Proper kit on the Helper proper sleeves etc are the tools of the trade and the Dog will react accordingly. Put better than i did but the outcome is the same. If a Guy or Girl is interested enough to do something then do it right, there is no other way
Steve1
There is another thing over here they have an Helpers day sponsered by the V.V.D.H, all the Helpers come together and are Judged on there abilitites and the Top Helper is Crowned the best Helper of say of 2013? No Helper who is NOT Qualified can work in competition work. Hired Dog has said it Proper kit on the Helper proper sleeves etc are the tools of the trade and the Dog will react accordingly. Put better than i did but the outcome is the same. If a Guy or Girl is interested enough to do something then do it right, there is no other way
Steve1
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