A END OF THE COMMON SENSE AND GOOD DOGS. - Page 2

I also use a prong collar, on some dogs.
Some dogs "need it", some do not
There are some that abuse whatever tool they have at their disposal.
It is clear, Not all dogs are created equal.
Some do need a stronger approach.
To me, the use of a prong, "correctly", is more more humane than starving your dog for three days while teachhing tracking.
To me, I don't compete, but I do train . And some dogs really do need that little extra incentive.

AKC bans pinch and e-collars at all sanctioned events.

Banning these devices at an event I understand, but banning them from training?  What a load of mess.  Grant you, I rarely use my pinch collar and I have not used an e-collar; but they have their place.  Maybe I am better off staying out of the competition world; it sounds to be as political and full of bull as government politics.  So very sad.

I would think that while it might be needed while training, once your dog is trained, you should be able to put it away.
If not, is your really trained?

Okay, this is supposed to be a ruling of the FCI. How come I can't find any mention of it on the FCI website? (Yes, I know it hasn't been passed yet).

I do not think Europe acknowledges April Fool's Day. And according to the website Hans linked to, the article Hans translated was published on March 28.

Some dogs, by the nature of their work, have to be reliable in all situations. At times a handler's life, the life of others and the dogs own life may depend on this reliability. On the other hand these same dogs must be of extremely high drive in order to get the job done. Example: try to find a low drive dog who will search all day in 100 degree (30+C) for a lost child. Anyone who has ever had the pleasure of working the type of dogs  that are hard on their bodies and will go until they die, whether it be field pointers, tracking dogs or other know that this type of dog, for his own sake, sometimes needs to be corrected in a way that impresses the dog.

How many dogs are still alive and living with their human friends because of electric fences, anti-bark collars, anti deer chasing electric collars, etc, 

I can teach a dog trial type "food refusal" through conditioning but for 100%, real life - save the dog's life from being poisoned, then sorry but I have to use a more impressing method on the dog.

JMHO

For the dogs I train, fully agree Kitkat.  These are training devices and once trained, I expect not to have to use them again.   That said, I do not have extreme high drive dogs and I have not done anything in bite work.  I can see how in both of those scenarios, a pinch collar is a forever thing.

Tempest in a teapot??  There are still plenty of folks using training tools abusively.  The PROPOSAL does not seek to define abusive use but instead tries to create a definition of abusive tools which is the reverse of what is needed.  Those proposing this rule wish to start the conversation about abusive training methods but the reality is that the definition of what is abusive is the problem with any such rule and they know it.  It can never happen because the definition of what is acceptable use of training tools is nearly impossible to know by observing in many cases.  Creating a class of abusive tools is the easier solution but will not work of course as those wishing to use abusive training methods will simply create new tools outside the definition of abusive tools.

Too true, Bubba! 

I can use a shock collar on vibrate to get a dog's attention, or I can crank it up to the max, and 'fry' the dog. It's not the tool that's abusive, it's the way its used!

Thanks for posting Hans. I think it should still be up to the trainer and not be governed by an organization on how to train my dog. I'd like to know who came up with this plan. We all want to use positive reinforcement for training but get real, a lot of times this just doesn't work. I asked the question some time back if you could train a dog to competition level with positive methods only and the overall conclusion was NO. I personally think that a choke chain is far worse than a pinch.

Will breeders breed less hard dogs so they are easier to train? God I hope not. How many breeds out there will run you over with positive training....I can think of a few.

Barb