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by Abby Normal on 13 February 2013 - 14:02
Nice Margaret :) I particularly liked the gentle way he settled his dog while they were waiting to start.
My first thought here was that Hans was largely addressing the issue of the woman who keeps peddling training with e collars and shows those dreadful disturbing videos of puppies being trained with them on here. I agree that if they are to be used you really need to know how to use them, and I don't believe she does.
Anyway, I have never yet had need to train with an e collar, and my dogs have done fine in obedience and are well behaved in all situations. Clearly people can obtain precision training with or without an e collar, so what would make you choose one way over the other? Just the character of a particular dog, or other reasons?
My first thought here was that Hans was largely addressing the issue of the woman who keeps peddling training with e collars and shows those dreadful disturbing videos of puppies being trained with them on here. I agree that if they are to be used you really need to know how to use them, and I don't believe she does.
Anyway, I have never yet had need to train with an e collar, and my dogs have done fine in obedience and are well behaved in all situations. Clearly people can obtain precision training with or without an e collar, so what would make you choose one way over the other? Just the character of a particular dog, or other reasons?
by Bob McKown on 13 February 2013 - 15:02
Just my 2cents:
Like any other trainng device it is usefull and a good tool when used properly and when needed.
Like any other trainng device it is usefull and a good tool when used properly and when needed.
by Kaffirdog on 13 February 2013 - 15:02
Hi Abby
Since this dog won the Belgian Championship and the World Championship, I think it is safe to assume he does precise work.
.
Ulf spent some time training with Mario and was so impressed with Hasco he mated Momo to him and has a litter here in UK at the moment, some have been booked by competitive people, plus he is keeping a male for himself so we will see how they fare without electric too.
Margaret N-J.
Since this dog won the Belgian Championship and the World Championship, I think it is safe to assume he does precise work.
.Ulf spent some time training with Mario and was so impressed with Hasco he mated Momo to him and has a litter here in UK at the moment, some have been booked by competitive people, plus he is keeping a male for himself so we will see how they fare without electric too.
Margaret N-J.
by ramgsd on 13 February 2013 - 17:02
HOW HANS HANDLES CORRECTING A DOG AT A DISTANCE AS HE POSTED ON HIS FORUM ON 2/10/13.
"Dog is 300 feet away from me and sniffing to something which is at that time very important to him/her. I call him to come. Dog ignores me. I then say "NO!" as a marker for not coming.Next is "Down - stay!" said in negative voice of NO. And again "No " with negative growling voice still for not coming. This low voice marks the original behavior of not coming and not of down. This must be done properly all in negative voice. Then I get to the dog and give him appropriate correction. Usually 4x snaps on collar or eventually later shake on the scarf of the skin on the neck if collar is not present. Then I step back about 15 feet and then call him come and give him his favorite reward and we are buddies again."
OK LET'S LOOK AT THIS.............. Dog didn't come when commanded you marked with harsh NO! The NO marker I understand but SO MUCH FOR STAYING NEUTRAL. Then you tell the dog to DOWN (we'll assume he obeys this command) Then you give him a 2nd HARSH NO??? You say "This low voice marks the original behavior of not coming and not of down. This must be done properly all in negative voice." You think the dog realizes that the second NO was for the command he did wrong , not for the one he just did right? Sorry that's not how it works. You have just totally screwed up your dogs mind. You gave a command that the dog didn't do and you marked with NO! Then you gave him another command that he did correctly and you said NO! (That's not how a dogs mind works.) THEN after you've told the dog NO for CORRECTLY downing on your command you go and give a physical correction? SO now the dog thinks that he is not only told NO for doing what is WRONG but when he does a command CORRECTLY he's also told NO....PLUS he gets a PHYSICAL CORRECTION!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????? If I were the dog I'd much rather just say screw the command. That way I only get a NO not a NO and SHAKEN BY THE SCRUFF OF MY NECK. If you think this has contributed to a trusting relationship with your dog, you and I have different views on trust.
Personally I only see that you did 2 things right. 1. that you marked the dog not doing the first command (although not neutral) and 2. when you backed up a short way and gave the dog a command it could do correctly and rewarded. That way the pressure could come off and the dog could have some success.
HANS I respect your knowledge of the Czech lines but as far as training with or without the E-collar I'm going to have to say let's just argree to disagree.
Rick
P/S I'd still like to see you and your dog doing the precision work.
"Dog is 300 feet away from me and sniffing to something which is at that time very important to him/her. I call him to come. Dog ignores me. I then say "NO!" as a marker for not coming.Next is "Down - stay!" said in negative voice of NO. And again "No " with negative growling voice still for not coming. This low voice marks the original behavior of not coming and not of down. This must be done properly all in negative voice. Then I get to the dog and give him appropriate correction. Usually 4x snaps on collar or eventually later shake on the scarf of the skin on the neck if collar is not present. Then I step back about 15 feet and then call him come and give him his favorite reward and we are buddies again."
OK LET'S LOOK AT THIS.............. Dog didn't come when commanded you marked with harsh NO! The NO marker I understand but SO MUCH FOR STAYING NEUTRAL. Then you tell the dog to DOWN (we'll assume he obeys this command) Then you give him a 2nd HARSH NO??? You say "This low voice marks the original behavior of not coming and not of down. This must be done properly all in negative voice." You think the dog realizes that the second NO was for the command he did wrong , not for the one he just did right? Sorry that's not how it works. You have just totally screwed up your dogs mind. You gave a command that the dog didn't do and you marked with NO! Then you gave him another command that he did correctly and you said NO! (That's not how a dogs mind works.) THEN after you've told the dog NO for CORRECTLY downing on your command you go and give a physical correction? SO now the dog thinks that he is not only told NO for doing what is WRONG but when he does a command CORRECTLY he's also told NO....PLUS he gets a PHYSICAL CORRECTION!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????? If I were the dog I'd much rather just say screw the command. That way I only get a NO not a NO and SHAKEN BY THE SCRUFF OF MY NECK. If you think this has contributed to a trusting relationship with your dog, you and I have different views on trust.
Personally I only see that you did 2 things right. 1. that you marked the dog not doing the first command (although not neutral) and 2. when you backed up a short way and gave the dog a command it could do correctly and rewarded. That way the pressure could come off and the dog could have some success.
HANS I respect your knowledge of the Czech lines but as far as training with or without the E-collar I'm going to have to say let's just argree to disagree.
Rick
P/S I'd still like to see you and your dog doing the precision work.
by Christopher Smith on 13 February 2013 - 20:02
Since this dog won the Belgian Championship and the World Championship, I think it is safe to assume he does precise work.
.
Yes, it precise and that's because Mario Verslijpe uses an e-collar!!! Here is what he said in an interview:
"Of course you can still use the electric collar. I do too, but only to put the cherry on the cake.
Some sections of the dogsport really need to think again about the use of the electric collar…. They correct the dog too much and wrongly with the e-collar.
I would recommend working with a negative command.
The use of the e-collaar can only be after a negative command is given. For instance the word: “NO”!
E-collar may never be used on the command, only on the negative command.
So when do you introduce the e-collar ?
Between 6 months and 1 year. But never in the learningproces. Thee-collar is only introduced in the open field.
But again: only after the relationship and the trust are optimal.
I work with low current.
A dog is an opportunist. Give him a finger and he’ll take your arm. If it is a strong dog, he will allways try to get the leadposition.
In modern training the use of the e-collar is nessesary to reach the top, but it only a small facet of the whole trainingproces.
I emphasize again: the e-collar needs to be used responsibly and with the lowest current because only then it can register."
MYTH BUSTED
See the interview here: http://www.schutzhund-training.net/interviews/MarioVerslijpe1.html
by Kaffirdog on 13 February 2013 - 20:02
When was that interview Christopher? When Ulf was training with him last year, he said he had never used an ecollar on Hasco and I can't see why he should lie about it.
Margaret N-J
Margaret N-J
by Hired Dog on 13 February 2013 - 20:02
Margaret..
People lie for various reasons, the most often one when it comes to training is that since we have become so PC, people think they need to appease the apostles of morality and lie about using E collars that in many circles and peoples mind are the devil themselves.
Another reason is clients, if someone is training dogs and charging good money and his market is focused primarily on pets, he wont talk about E collars because pet people despise E collars, prongs and chokers.
Further still, E collars are against the law to use in some countries in Europe, but, not to buy or own, figure that out. Everyone I know in those countries STILL uses them in order to get that edge they need to compete, but, they wont advertise it.
Could you please tell me why you would NOT accept that he may have indeed used one?
People lie for various reasons, the most often one when it comes to training is that since we have become so PC, people think they need to appease the apostles of morality and lie about using E collars that in many circles and peoples mind are the devil themselves.
Another reason is clients, if someone is training dogs and charging good money and his market is focused primarily on pets, he wont talk about E collars because pet people despise E collars, prongs and chokers.
Further still, E collars are against the law to use in some countries in Europe, but, not to buy or own, figure that out. Everyone I know in those countries STILL uses them in order to get that edge they need to compete, but, they wont advertise it.
Could you please tell me why you would NOT accept that he may have indeed used one?
by Slamdunc on 13 February 2013 - 21:02
Ramsgsd,
Thank You!
For any novices that are new to dog owning, dog training or to sport work please read Ramsgsd's post and take it to heart. What is posted in yellow below is exactly what NOT to do and shows how some have not evolved in their training methods over the past 20 or so years. This is abusive, incorrect and confusing to the dog. This will certainly undermine your relationship with your dog and will cause a strong dog to confront the handler for these unfair corrections.
After telling the dog to come and the dog ignores the command here is what Hans has recommended, or better yet what he does:
Dog is 300 feet away from me and sniffing to something which is at that time very important to him/her. I call him to come. Dog ignores me. I then say "NO!" as a marker for not coming.Next is "Down - stay!" said in negative voice of NO. And again "No " with negative growling voice still for not coming. This low voice marks the original behavior of not coming and not of down. This must be done properly all in negative voice. Then I get to the dog and give him appropriate correction. Usually 4x snaps on collar or eventually later shake on the scarf of the skin on the neck if collar is not present. Then I step back about 15 feet and then call him come and give him his favorite reward and we are buddies again."
If the dog does not come when called, he is not reliably trained and probably should not be off lead and allowed to disobey the "come" command. If you then command "down," which is fine; approach the dog and place a leash on the dog and praise the dog for downing and obeying that command. Never, ever never correct the dog for a command that the dog has just obeyed. We praise and reward our dogs for obeying; never walking up to the dog who has downed correctly and giving 4 x snaps on the collar or shaking a dog by the scruff of the neck when he has just obeyed. This is what has evolved in dog training in the past 20 years or so. Who still shakes an adult dog by the scruff of the neck? This is a recipe for a dog to redirect and tag it's owner. What has the dog learned by the advice given above? IMO, the dog has learned that if it downs and obeys that command it gets punished. Dogs do not reason or communicate like humans and will not be able to reason that it is being corrected for what happened prior to performing the down command. I guarantee the dog will learn that the handler approaching is a bad thing and bad things happen even though the dog obeyed. This is not the message that I want to send to my dog. The whole premise and execution of negative markers and compulsion is completely wrong and misunderstood in the paragraph in yellow.
Again, dog training has evolved and moved away from this type of mentality. If a handler in my unit did this to his dog and I observed it, we would have a big issue and he would be getting some remedial training. The type of training outlined above will never develop precision, a happy working dog, a strongly bonded dog with it's handler but it will create a dog that is unsure of what is coming next from his handler. Sorry, but you will never be "buddies again" after that treatment, your dog is happy he is not getting hammered again that is all. But, dogs are forgiving and may not hold this harsh treatment against you for too long.
Thank You!
For any novices that are new to dog owning, dog training or to sport work please read Ramsgsd's post and take it to heart. What is posted in yellow below is exactly what NOT to do and shows how some have not evolved in their training methods over the past 20 or so years. This is abusive, incorrect and confusing to the dog. This will certainly undermine your relationship with your dog and will cause a strong dog to confront the handler for these unfair corrections.
After telling the dog to come and the dog ignores the command here is what Hans has recommended, or better yet what he does:
Dog is 300 feet away from me and sniffing to something which is at that time very important to him/her. I call him to come. Dog ignores me. I then say "NO!" as a marker for not coming.Next is "Down - stay!" said in negative voice of NO. And again "No " with negative growling voice still for not coming. This low voice marks the original behavior of not coming and not of down. This must be done properly all in negative voice. Then I get to the dog and give him appropriate correction. Usually 4x snaps on collar or eventually later shake on the scarf of the skin on the neck if collar is not present. Then I step back about 15 feet and then call him come and give him his favorite reward and we are buddies again."
If the dog does not come when called, he is not reliably trained and probably should not be off lead and allowed to disobey the "come" command. If you then command "down," which is fine; approach the dog and place a leash on the dog and praise the dog for downing and obeying that command. Never, ever never correct the dog for a command that the dog has just obeyed. We praise and reward our dogs for obeying; never walking up to the dog who has downed correctly and giving 4 x snaps on the collar or shaking a dog by the scruff of the neck when he has just obeyed. This is what has evolved in dog training in the past 20 years or so. Who still shakes an adult dog by the scruff of the neck? This is a recipe for a dog to redirect and tag it's owner. What has the dog learned by the advice given above? IMO, the dog has learned that if it downs and obeys that command it gets punished. Dogs do not reason or communicate like humans and will not be able to reason that it is being corrected for what happened prior to performing the down command. I guarantee the dog will learn that the handler approaching is a bad thing and bad things happen even though the dog obeyed. This is not the message that I want to send to my dog. The whole premise and execution of negative markers and compulsion is completely wrong and misunderstood in the paragraph in yellow.
Again, dog training has evolved and moved away from this type of mentality. If a handler in my unit did this to his dog and I observed it, we would have a big issue and he would be getting some remedial training. The type of training outlined above will never develop precision, a happy working dog, a strongly bonded dog with it's handler but it will create a dog that is unsure of what is coming next from his handler. Sorry, but you will never be "buddies again" after that treatment, your dog is happy he is not getting hammered again that is all. But, dogs are forgiving and may not hold this harsh treatment against you for too long.
by Slamdunc on 13 February 2013 - 21:02
kaffirdog,
He references Hasco in that article, the date apears to be 12-8-11.
Jim
He references Hasco in that article, the date apears to be 12-8-11.
Jim
by Kaffirdog on 14 February 2013 - 11:02
Hi Jim and Hired Dog
The only reference I could find to Hasco is this one where he says he made changes to his training to accommodate the dog
Hasko van de Duvetorre : a few years have passed and I introduced a few changes in the training method as opposed to Yagus. Hasko is dominant with a lot of temperament but no nervosity. He is also built completely different than Yagus en Stoned.
How do you see the future with your young Belgian Shepherd dog Hasko van de Duvetorre ?
I think I’m on the right track. He is about 18 months old now. I have to finetune him a bit here and there.
I really like that dog. He is pretty dominant but he suits me .
I am still very passionate. I hope I can compete in large events in future.
I can accept he uses an ecollar if there is some proof of it, but since it seems the ecollar is not illegal in Belgium, I can't see why Mario would lie about it to another Schutzhund enthusiast, especially since he has openly used it with his previous dogs. Maybe the change in training he referred to is no more electric?
Margaret N-J
The only reference I could find to Hasco is this one where he says he made changes to his training to accommodate the dog
Hasko van de Duvetorre : a few years have passed and I introduced a few changes in the training method as opposed to Yagus. Hasko is dominant with a lot of temperament but no nervosity. He is also built completely different than Yagus en Stoned.
How do you see the future with your young Belgian Shepherd dog Hasko van de Duvetorre ?
I think I’m on the right track. He is about 18 months old now. I have to finetune him a bit here and there.
I really like that dog. He is pretty dominant but he suits me .
I am still very passionate. I hope I can compete in large events in future.
I can accept he uses an ecollar if there is some proof of it, but since it seems the ecollar is not illegal in Belgium, I can't see why Mario would lie about it to another Schutzhund enthusiast, especially since he has openly used it with his previous dogs. Maybe the change in training he referred to is no more electric?
Margaret N-J
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